@ Foust: only 35 pieces with hardened AND/OR heavy armor? That seems like an awfully small number to me, would have thought it to be much larger.

The other stats, however, seem about right. Assuming they are, I'd think that the numbers involved are small enough that it shouldn't have too much overall effect: only two 'mechs with 22 defense and Decoy (and one of those having it as single use), and none with 23 defense (so far). Shouldn't be that difficult to put together an army that can deal with that.

I'm leaning more and more towards implementing this idea as part of my "house rules."

If there is one armor SE that works against AP, it should be the one that costs the most - Hardened. It is also better distributed among the factions than Reactive. I'll agree that Decoy should also negate AP.

As far as arty, only a direct hit (center dot, at the very least) should have AP.

Going back to what IVIercy was saying, I think he missed one of the most important downsides of all of the SE's he listed... that being they can only be used if you target a single target. Almost all of the offensive SE's can only target a single thing if they are using their SE (all of the melee SE, all the energy, Streaks only work against a single target) why not balance out armor piercing that way. I personally don't have a problem with an artillery that can put a single armor piercing pog on the field (even at 2 damage) it's when it can put 2 or 3 (or god forbid 4 or more) AP pogs out there that they can get game breaking-ly scary. Let the artillery's controller decide if he wants to shoot 1 AP pog or 2 non. Let the DI schmitt's controller decide (before rolling) if he is going to just target that 1 big mech for an AP shot or will he target 4 units to "guarantee" the hit. I think this would help balance out AP Art and tank-drop, along with add some kind of use for armor SE's. Just a thought. :)

Foust, if anything should break Decoy, it should be streak, not AP.

Thanks for getting back on the discussion guys.

And Warflail, thanks for sticking your nose in and seeing whats going on. I would however, appreciate your comments if you have time.

Mercy, why would you say streak? Id like to know your thoughts on that as I have not thought about it. We certainly agree on the AP not breaking decoy.

My thought on IT and Decoy was not so much the paper rock scissors approach but more of if you have to reroll to hit having the opportunity to reroll a dice would make it that much easier to hit. Thus "breaking"decoy.

Incorrect. Please refer to Fanpro's Classic Battletech Master Rules: Revised Edition , the current "official" rules for Level One and Two Battletech.

Page 133, heading "Autocannon Submunitions," subheading "Armor-Piercing Ammunition." I quote:

"The weight of armor-piercing ammunition means that a ton of armor-piercing ammo contains half as many shots as a ton of standard ammo (rounded down). In addition, armor-piercing rounds are rather hard to aim, adding a +1 modifier to the to-hit number at all ranges."

It would appear that someone needs to update their knowledge of the rules.

DF

Dragonsfury thats all well and good if we are playing CBT and if we were you would be 100% correct. However that really doesnt help in our discussion of armor se's vs AP in MWDA.
What are your thoughts on that subject?

Actually, I think he's made his opinion pretty clear: AP should add to the target's Defense.

Simple.

MORTARS

See, armor is useful now. It may be a prerequisite.

Clown you are correct 35 is a low numer.
35 units have Heavy and Hardened
180 units have Heavy 97 are mechs
37 units have hardened 25 are mechs
My mistake.
Hakkenshi, I saw no reference to mwda so I made no assumption as to what his opinion was. I would like to know what his opinion on the subject is.

I have no opinion on the subject, aside from the belief that Decoy should not be negated by AP. I merely wanted to clear up a rules inconsistency with the game that is getting the majority of my time nowadays.

DF

Oh, okay, sorry.

Foust,

Ok if your going to make me think about it., My thoughts on streak.

Streak is supposed to be super advanced targeting equipment, Latest technoligy guidance, smaller warheads. I think we all agree it is a missile system.

you take a damage hit for extra guidance systems and sensors on board and the system, if it is anything like modern weapons, has a combination of locking devices designed to defeat countermeasures.

The concept behind Decoy is flares, chaft, holographs, what ever. A weapon system that has more advanced targeting sensors, is more apt to recognize and ignore false targets.

I have always thought of streaks as a Fire and Forget weapon that tracks its target without help.

Thats what decoy was made to work against. Like flares vs. a heat seeking missile.

Your arguement works better for IT. IT works like ECCM. Countering counter measures.

Mercy sounds reasonable, now what affect does this have on the balance of the game. Say we change it so AP does not affect decoy but instead streak does? What does this do to the game?
57 figs with streak 30 are mechs
92 figs with decoy 34 are mechs
Not too bad. This would tame AP to a degree, that is by taking away one of the things it effects. By giving decoy a counter (streak) we balance decoy. What other considerations could we be missing? This still leaves AP affecting 3 other defensive SE's. Heavy Hardened and Reactive. It made sence to me that Reactive would also counter AP. The counter for reactive would of course be energy based weapons. What would be the effects of this change on the game?