I will agree, 5 faction abilities on one force is pretty cool. See if you can throw in a Sea Fox mech and get 8. :)

But in all seriousness, let us know how it works out. I know that at least I am interested in hearing more...

As soon as JF Longtom arrives in the mail, I'll put out a full battle report. I'll also be testing a 600pt version, which does have all 6 faction abilities. By dropping in Deleon's Eyrie and upgrading a Gnome to an Elemental its good to go.

@nthcircle: Cool, I'll be waiting to hear about it.

Ok, so we've now seen two of the three quad mechs. So far, they look pretty neat, although I think the medium one looks a bit more appealing. And we know the other non is a heavy. So, which one would you want for Liao (assuming we get one at all, but with 8 nons, and 6-9 U/LE's, I'd say there's a decent chance). I think I'm going for the medium one (the Thunderfox). I wanted a replacement for the Targe, right? :)

I'm withholding an opinion until we see the gear cards next week. I think that will be the deciding factor.

@ MuppetWarrior --

Like White Knight, I really like the Tolin Men force. I may have to try that one out myself.

The spider force looks like a lot of fun but around here I would run into problems because many people like to take beefcake mechs with hardened armor and many clicks of life. That force would have a hard time dealing with it. I do like it, it just wouldn't fit my current venue well. I'll have to try it against Stu, the only guy that runs 3 or 4 light mechs pretty regularly.

Cheers

@Gwareth & White Knight: I will admit there is something nice about running a Shen Yi, but I've been going over in my head how the two forces would go against each other, and I keep coming up with a win for the Spiders. All the reactive armor limits the A-IV and Tolin. The PDS can be fully screened by the Bikes while sacrificing ATV's to the A-IV, and the lack of armor make Tolin vulnerable to the Paladin.

I will admit that I do normally see AP arty, maybe some TD and potentially some VTOLs (the venue for the 450 is the more competitive one), so I don't know. I'm going to continue to ponder it (and I'd like to come home with Kava for trade stock).

And Gwareth, please, steal away. Just let me know it goes! :)

I'm new to this Liao community. First I wanted to start out by saying that out of all of the game faction forums I've been to. This one seems the friendliest, but still blunt and to the point. Glad to join up.

I was wondering if anybody could confirm what I discovered with the Liao Long Tom. Playing faction pure of course. If you surround it with a combat engineer (4 clicks of life, 11 points), a mini gun cycle (5 clicks of life, 12 points), and other supporting infantry; you should effectively be able to win counter artillery battery wars most of the time and then have artillery superiority.

The SS Arrow IV (tournament arty choice of most) will have to use it's single use AP and push to keep try to nullify the Long Tom. Then take into account the infantry factor. The select Liao infantry helps win the battery war. The engineers will die after two rounds of AP shelling. This will repair the Liao Long Tom from either the push or the AP damage it sustained. Even with those nasty repair markers inbetween. You'll still have the minigun and other infantry around to heal it.

The outcome is that the SS A4 will be salvaged, Liao Long Tom will still be a functional 2 damage for a while still yet.

The Paladin is a good piece, but in an artillery battle, it would get smacked down to its 1 damage AnP too quickly. The Long Tom keeps good damage for a long time.

The Long Tom is also DF ATV fireproof, takes only 1 damage from Donars, is cheaper, elite, and doesn't salvage.

The Long Tom is not the hammer of the force, but will be a harasser. The rest of the force can be spent on a Mech, Scout ATV's, or whatever. Just be aware of orders. It might be good to have a turtle type army.

If you guys have the time, please input.

@yogo_rendo

You've made a very good argument for the LT. Might I be so humble as to add to your input? First, looking at the pogs and and the first 2 clicks, the LT is going to be more accurate and with a larger blast radius, it can potentially damage more......now if I can only get my grubby paws on a couple of them....

Ixnaydude

@yogo_rendo: Welcome to the CCAF! Always good to have a new member in service of the Chancellor. And thanks for the compliments. Those are things I like about this forum myself. :)

I like both the Tom and the PDS. They sort of play off each other's strengths. Both are elite, both have deep dials, and 2 damage protection from ballistic. While the PDS has the 3 pogs and better minimum range as well as significantly higher defense, the Tom keeps it's damage longer, and has Hardened Armor. I actually only have a PDS, so I don't have experience with the Tom, but I think it has a lot of potential. I really like the stability, and want to play with some arty that has a 3 inch blast.

Either one will come out on top on a war with a single SSw A-IV, but that will be because of dial length. Going over the dials, it should take two turns to get the A-IV to salvage, while that will leave the Tom on a repair click with 2 damage (and no armor). Remember, once it get's off the Hardened Armor, the single use is actually more of a hindrance. If the SSw takes that last click of damage and use the AP, the Tom will take 3. But, as you said, the CE will die, healing the Tom back to the repair marker. The PDS on the other hand, will be on it's 1 damage AnP clicks, so the Tom remains a better arty piece after the duel. Add in a second A-IV, and it's a whole other ball game. :)

The Tom is immune to the DF ATV's (and most infantry), but to an extent, so is the PDS. The high defense helps it out with that. The Tom will last longer against a Donar, though. But you'll still need some other units that can deal with that donar. The MHI is nice that way.

The staggered dial length of the infantry is a good tactic, but it's a little hard to use effectively. In general, it's hard to take the right combination of damage to get the best use out of it. The one area where it will most likely work is as an arty screen. Good call.

We do have some very impressive arty, but the lack of AP does hurt us. Both the Tom and the PDS become neutered by Reactive or Hardened Armor. So just make sure the main thrust of the force can deal with that armor, and you should be set.

Thanks for the replies guys. I was just debating whether to set up an artyscreen where I deploy, or actually make the effort to pack my arty in a Garrot or Zahn to set up in the corner.

Just like the debate over the Paladin and Long Tom and heading for the corner or staying where you deploy, it depends on what you intend to do with the rest of your support.

For now, I'm going to stay put with a Long Tom and staggered click infantry.

@yogo_rendo: I've never actually used the 'corner drop' with my arty (but, seeing as I've only recently acquired an arty that has the range to take account of it, I can at least now consider it). Personally, I'd rather not have to use the extra order to set it up. And you have to set up the infiltrating screen over in the corner before hand, telegraphing your first move (not that placing your ATV's doesn't do that at other times...). I might give it a try in the near future, though...

Ok, yesterday, I played in two different tournaments. I got first in one, and second in anther. But the more I think about it, the less pleased I am with my performance. Live and learn, right?

First one only had one other player show up, so we only played one game. It was unrestricted, all vehicles (including sylphs). 550 points, 3 orders, no arty _orders_, all movement distance is doubled (doesn't affect VTOL scoot-n-shoot). I brought:

MHI AA x2
Regulator x2
Danai Support
Fulcrum x2
Kite
Garrot
Glory FST

546 Total, Awe

In retrospect, I could have replaced the Garrot with a Zahn for more durability, but I wanted the 2 inch longer drop. My opponent fielded a swarm of Sylphs, SSw Balac, DF Schmidt drop in SW J37, BR Glory FST, a command vehicle, HL Kelswa, HL Regulator and some random other stuff.

He got to go first, so I had to forgo the potential drop since with the enhanced infiltrate distance, he could drop the Schmidt and cripple the transport before I got to do anything with it. So I basically set up in a line in my DZ. The game centered on this choke point between 2 H's my opponent tried to control. He had the Glory and Schmidt parked there, with the J37 behind. I used the Garrot and Kite to base his tanks to get into range. By the time it was over, I had VC1 and VC2, he had VC3. I had taken out the Balac, Glory and maybe a Sylph or two, he had the Garrot, Kite and maybe a Fulcrum.

After the official end of the game, we decided to continue playing. I salvaged the Schmidt, and took the J37 out of repair. So in the end it was a pushed Kelswa plus hurt support vs a near full Glory plus hurt support. He rolled high first, and took the game. I had a bit of trouble with the dice (a Regulator missed a SC Sylph basing it three times). So I got the win, but ultimately lost. Oh well.

Second tourney was a straight 450. By popular demand, I took the Tolin Men army posted earlier. :) There were a total of six players, and 3 Liao pure forces! Woot!

First game was against a new player (he built a Liao force from the store owners pool). I helped him out while taking all three VC's. The amazing thing about this game, and this player, is that between us, we rolled Awe maybe a dozen times during the game (something he kept up in his other games too). That was neat.

Second game was against the other Liao force. It consisted of a Targe, P-Hawk, PDS, Minigun/TrackBike screen, and 3 ATV's. I got to go first. All blocking terrain was used, but it wound up being on my side of the board. He angled the PDS to screen it, so it only had about half board coverage, but since he set up after me, I couldn't take advantage of it. I spread out my ATV's to keep them alive until a hole in his screen opened up. The two Mech's flanked the PDS.

First turn, I pogged the Minigun screen, and ran Tolin and the Shun up. He moved the Miniguns to base 2 ATV's and pogged the rest of my forces. I moved Tolin and based the PDS with the un-based ATV. My arty hit dead on, thus missing everything (I would have liked it to drift forward into the PDS, but oh well).

I worked my way upfield, since both of our arty was based. I dropped the Snipers to take two shots at the P-Hawk, and missed both. :( He shot the Shun with the P-Hawk, and I moved Tolin a walk away from his DZ.

Here's were the mistakes came in. First, I moved Tolin in on the other side of the field from where my other ATV's were. Second, I moved the hit Shun over by Tolin, out of range of the P-Hawk (who now had to follow it (it's green)) but into range of the Targe. I was thinking of using it as an attacker, but I should have just pulled it back. He salvaged it with the Targe, moved the P-Hawk over and based Tolin with an Minigun.

Over the next three turns, I cooled Tolin one, and failed to break from the Minigun to plop him in the opponents DZ with his back to the wall. So my opponent could finish off the Shun, and set up several rear arc shots. Needless to say, I lost the game, with only VC3 to my name (the A-IV, 2 Miniguns, the Snipers! and an ATV survived).

I think I could have won if I hadn't failed either of those break rolls, but I also didn't help myself with those tactical mistakes.

Third game was against the Wolves, with a Padilla, Geoff, and MHI, Donar and some Fenrir. This was a true city-fight (you would have liked it, White Knight), with plenty of blocking over the field. The two mechs bypassed each other on the way to the opponents DZ. The only damage Tolin took was from an early heat cascade followed by an ammo explosion. I killed the Padilla, a few fenrir and salvaged the Donar. He got the A-IV and a bunch of Bikes. The end game had Tolin playing chicken with the MHI, and the MHI constantly running away. :) I took VC2 and VC3, and got second. But since the first place guy already had Kava (the prize) he let me have her.

Overall, a successful day, but the dice let me down at some critical points. And I really don't like what I did with the Shun in the second game. Next time I'll know better (hopefully), and I wont be facing some of the Chancellors finest! :)

Yep, nothing better than a large number of great big honkin' buildings to make a game more intelligent. Games Workshop used to live by the credo "The more terrain, the better the game", (dunno if they still do) and that is the best advice I ever got from playing WH40K. An open battlefield is the domain of armchair generals and idealists - gimme an office block to fight over or around, anyday!

I've started a POA on the CJF ST about taking the same force for 3 weeks, no modifications, to hone my skills on the standard game arena - I've been playing smaller blitz matches like crazy, giving me a chance to try out various unit combos, but I really wanted to try out some of these in a larger game environment, while also getting used to them. I haven't really done this since putting together my Valkyrie Lance formation about 6 months or more back, and figure I want to get back into old habits.

So, since CJF are getting this treatment, I thought I'd do the same with CCAF - the challenge is that with CJF, the 450 was Regimentally Pure, so I want to try out the same for CCAF.

Back on the first page of this thread, I threw together a 600 pointer that looked absolutely EVIL (y'know, the Jung Chae/Twin PDS monster that has synergy up the wazzoo?) - I figured that :^^^: was the way to go, but wanted to steer clear of Uniques since there is something very reassuring about using Nons.

While the word "Targe" leaps to mind almost instantly, I've decided to try something a little different....

Heracles Lance
:^^^: Rifleman 238 points
:^^^: Paladin Defense System 82 points
:^^^: Paladin Defense System 82 points
2 x :^^^: Trackbikes 18/36 points
438 points total :(

I know I could put in an MGC or ATV, but that would be against the Principle of the thing... Okay, here's the second attempt, this time resigning myself to Uniques...

Agrippa Lance
:^^^: Catalina Trujilo Shen Yi 246 points
:^^^: Paladin Defense System 82 points
:^^^: Paladin Defense System 82 points
2 x :^^^: Trackbikes 18/36 points
446 points total :)

TBC...

Cont'd from previous...

This feels better, especially with the Jump Jets to make the most of the office blocks. However, the Infantry is still a little light, and overall the force lacks the flexibility to last the distance.

Oh, well, nothing for it... :devious:

Juno Lance
:^^^: Erinyes 159 points *
:^^^: Paladin Defense System 82 points
:^^^: Paladin Defense System 82 points
:^^^: MHI Defense AA Tank 63 points
3 x :^^^: Trackbikes 18/54 points
440 points total :eek:

*(The Erinyes is a mod I made to replace the sculpt of the Targe - it was in the Chop Shop Forum a while back - Mad Cat 3 legs and arms, Modified Torso of a Rifleman including a torso-mounted RAC. It gets my opponents worried :devious:...)

I can live with this force - while 10 points is a lot to give away, I figure that between 2 PDSblazing away, and an invulnerable Medium Mech dancing away in the middle of it all, I should do okay. The MHI provides valium against DFD attack, while the Trackbikes.... aw, what the hey!!!

Ares Lance
:^^^: Erinyes 159 points *
:^^^: Paladin Defense System 82 points
:^^^: Paladin Defense System 82 points
:^^^: MHI Defense AA Tank 63 points
:^^^: MHI Defense AA Tank 63 points
449 points total :laugh:

Heck, since trying the AoD rules, I've got into the habit of using Bulidings to help cover one of my flanks on my tanks. If the ATVs are rife, then I'll hold back the mech and let the pain commence.

It's looney, crazy, but BOY, DOES IT LOOK FUN!!! :p :p

Thoughts (on the army, not my sanity...!)

@White Knight: There have been times when I've considered playing the same force more than once, but that doesn't happen very often. Maybe my tactical skills would improve if I practiced more with specific pieces. But then, it's a trade off from the more flexible skills one garners from using different forces all the time. We'll see if I join you in this endeavor...

On to your forces. Well, in the Heracles Lance, you could downgrade (downgrade, hah! :)) a PDS to a Tom. Then you could put in another Bike and boost your total to 448. And that way you get to field a Rifleman! :)

Personally, I think Ares Lance is too much of a risk. Even with Friendly Fire and Called Shot, it will be far to easy to take the Paladins out of the fight. Say you set up like this:

MHI PDS PDS MHI

They can only base the PDS in the front, limiting to a total of three units between the two of them. The MHI's will also be based in that case. An order from each will take out the two end basers, and an assault from the Mech will hurt (maybe take out, depending on the unit) the last one. That's 5 orders to deal with one (assuming a movement formation). If you split them up, the order ratio get's better, but it's still not in your favor. Ares really needs some protection.

I think Juno is the most promising. You can replace a PDS with a Tom, add a Bike and get to 450 even. That will give you 4 infantry and the MHI for arty screen, meaning you'll have at least one usable arty. The Targe, er, excuse me, Erinyes works better with the arty than Catalina does with it's Hardened Armor. Mix in some water and blocking, and you'll be good to go.

Hey gang, I have a 600pt single faction event coming up this weekend and was looking for some ideas. Anyone out there have a rock solid 600pt Liao (or Liao + merc) army I could give a whirl?