Um... Er... ehhh.... if it's undercosted, that makes it excellent, rather than sucky.

More oomph per point spent = a better unit.

Cheers!
-N

Granted, the Blade can be effective. It doesn't have an achilles heel like Dereck, and has a much cooler sculpt (whee!). So that was a pretty poor example on my part, as it doesn't 'suck outright'. Or even 'suck', it's just a utility piece of middling usefulness for its points.

I'm not suggesting that a unit can't be useful unless it's the best of the best; my argument is simply that one can analyze the utility of a unit based on its stats alone, rather than 'trying' it out.

Synergies can be determined by theory, as well, before anything hits the tabletop. While I'm no master at this, high-level players can think up some wild things while browsing the units section on the Realms.

The flip-side of the argument is that units that /do/ suck outright based on theoretical analysis will still suck outright when they hit the tabletop to be 'tried out'.

Cheers!
-N

Well, the general concensus is that the Highlander Legionnaire
sucks because of it's 8 attack and lack of AP. My opinion, based
on personal experience (aka - "trying it out") is that it has a nice
heat dial, deep life dial (made even deeper with heavy armor),
and a fairly consistent damage profile for 114 points. When used
as part of a balanced, combined-arms force, it can be a very
effective mech. If I had just dismissed it, out of hand, based on
it's low attack, I'd never be able to say that. ;)

Ahh Xyber, I do not think you understand how a fat mech can be played in the current game and still be viable. You do not play to win, you play to not lose. You only need to do enough damage to kill more of his stuff than he can of yours and then stay alive for fifty minutes. If you time your run just right, this is easy to do with Jonah. At worst, you only need 151 points. It is not about dealing and then soaking up damage, it is about of intimidating your opponent out of the fight with Streaks, big offense and bigger defense and then snatching victory at the line (by dealing then soaking up damage and winning the balance). Jonah is the ONLY mech, Atlas or otherwise, that lets you do this. Geoff comes mighty close though...

An even better example is the SC Ghost. In the pre-CA days of mechless armies, it was an awesome meta choice. I think Nick was the first person to figure that one out but I bet it wasn't because he "tried it out" first. He undoubtledly looked at the damage profile, its defensive abilities against the current threats (donars) etc and decided to "try it out" AFTER evaluating it.

I wonder how many people had to "try out" SS Arrow IVs before they realised how good they were...

P.S. Highlander Lego still sucks dude ;)

Gotta agree with that - it was immediately apparent how broken
that piece was. :)

However, whether someone considers the HL Lego and SSw Atlas
good mechs or poop, one thing is certain - both will be retired in
less than 3 months. ;)

The sad fact is, most MW units are "retired" as soon as you open the booster. So much chaff....

[quote]Originally posted by Numismancer
[b]Um... Er... ehhh.... if it's undercosted, that makes it excellent, rather than sucky.

More oomph per point spent = a better unit.



Um...Er....ehhh.... if Dereck had a great heat dial would he suck? If the DF cost 75 points would it still be great? Would it still be abused like it is? That's my point.

Let me put it this way, if you say Dereck sucks because his heat dial is bad, I can say the DF sucks because it's low cost lets it be abused. It is a matter of opinion. We are both correct. I have chosen to work with Dereck's bad heat and make it work for what I want to do with an army. Any scrub with money can put 4 Donars in an army someone else designed and try to make it work. Where is the imagination in that?

Let's try two different units mentioned here, if the SS Arrow IV cost 75 points and the HL Legionnaire cost 95 would they still be looked at in the same manner they are today?

Additionally, let me add that IMHO point cost is the single most stat of a unit that can be misrepresented and cause the most damage. It seems every faction has 1-2 units that are not costed appropriately for what they do. This list closely mimics some of the current 'popular' armies.

All Donars
BR Sprints
SS Arrow IV (pre nerf of it and pre arty nerf)
All other Arrow IV Tanks (pre pog nerf)
Scout ATV's

I think there is no doubt from anyone that these units are undercosted for what they do. All of these units should cost about 15% - 20 % more than they do.

So, you're comparing oranges to apples ...

Dereck Hasbani -> Sucks because it's hard to play.
DF Donar -> Sucks because it's undercosted, so it's a badly designed piece, not a hard piece to play.

Totally different suckage. One can't be used competitively, the other one is so good it makes loads of other stuff be uncompetitive.

@Masta
Mmmmmm, close to something like that.

I'm saying that Dereck is bad because he has to be used the right way, competitive or not. The Donar is bad because of it's undercosting we have the state of the game today.

Yes they are different types of sucking but which one is truely worse for the game? A tough unit that has a bad heat dial and is difficult to use correctly or a tough unit that doesn't cost enough for it's strengths and causes great abuses through overuse?

Which one sucks? Maybe they both do, but I would take Dereck any day and build a creative army using him versus building a copycat army using one of the games most abused pieces.

@Novafire,


As usual, I find myself agreeing with you. ;) You've hit the nail
right on the head with regard to the undercosted units that
are frequently abused. I also feel that Derek, as are all the
Atlases (Atli?), is a very useful piece. What most people don't
realize is that if all the pieces were the same, what would be
the point? Different pieces do, indeed, require different strats
to play them successfully and allow for strategic growth. That,
in turn, is good for the game. :)

I found out something, recently, about the DF Donar that might
make you smile - one hit from Kava drops it right into salvage! :p


David

It does my heart proud to see that a thread on Hasbani has drummed up so much ire and support. :)

I'm glad that we of the Federated Suns can continue to stir things up....whether it be our A4 or other spayed equipment...now it's Dereck! That bad heat dial issue never grows old. :rolleyes:

-Q

Actually, Novafire hit it twice.

the issue of "easy to play" and "tough to play" is the line between the competitive pieces and those that are not.

That entire list is "easy" and most pieces that people want to play are as well. After all, it doesn't take much effort to put together a warpog army, or a VTOL army and play it. Nowadays you can find army lists right on here, copy them, and play the army. Sure, it might take a bit of money, but then you have a 'competitive' army.

Now, take a Mech like K. Kitsman. Heavy point cost. big defense. No major shining points. Why use him? Well, because he's there, he's SwSw, and it's NOT EASY to use him.

Part of this game is the challenge. I don't find it challenging to walk into a venue, plop 6 DF Donars onto the field, and play. I want my opponent's to challenge me, but I also want to challenge myself. There's an unrestricted event I'm going to tonight, that this debate has helped me decide that I'm playing Hasbani in. You build 3 300 point sub-armies, you put 1 of them on the field at random, then partway through another 1 of them comes in as reserves. 1 Arty and 1 VTOL max per 300 group. the 300 groups have to be faction pure. (Yes, we have a few inspired BM's around here)

oh, David, 1 hit from Kava might salvage a donar, but take a look at what happens when you split fire and do 3 damage each to two donars....

I'm going to claim ignorance on the following because I don't know where the term originated but isn't someone who uses the minimum cost to get the maximum result in anything called a min/maxer?

It's my experiance that those people are usually not well liked.

Hmmmmm.....DF Donar - min cost, max output

Not saying it's not a viable strategy, because it obviously is, it's just not my gig. Sad that this game has become that.