I'm not entirely certain why a whole bunch of Hazen armies have popped up (what, no Shiros?). I can't review them, myself, since I don't have enough BR/Hazen experience to really say, 'lo, this thou shalt do'. What I can do is post an actual Hazen 600 and why I built it the way I did.

Caveats: the venue this was played at is not hypercompetitive. Good, but not psycho. So this army was tested, but not stress tested.

Black Rose/Hazen/A Camo
JF Blade/JF Star Commander/AnP
JF MHI APC
2x JF TTL
1x JF Sylph
3x LI ATV

The army was more or less JF pure, but since I like ATVs, I cheated in terms of faction purity. I'm a bad man.

Hazen was the big gun. What she turned into was The Big Target, but it actually worked for me. I played her... badly. Never got off a DFA, couldn't roll well with her, bleah. But, on the other hand, she never died. The Camo was partially for use, but it mostly just served as a point sink.

The JF Blade was a godsend. He won me at least two games and potentially all three. The 12 AV and AnP did Bad Things to infantry (which Hazen just can't deal with). He was also a potential Charge Monkey (especially against, say, a Shiro). The relatively lousy 19 DV was shielded by the fact that there was this big assault mech chunking at them. The Blade can drive deep or slither around in support of Hazen, which Hazen really needs.

The JF TTLs were there for double pogs and cheapness. They survived most of the games, but when someone targeted them, they died. They took out a HK Zeus, they're very accurate, but they die easily and can't pog outside of most mechs assault range.

The MHI was an odd choice. Without the Infilitrate, the TTLs can't pog deeply enough to keep enemy artillery jumping. However, it also was mean enough to take out a JF Sylph trying to do nasty things to my TTLs.

JF Sylph. Multipurpose attack VTOL/baser/VC3 thief.

LI ATVs were there for a particular reason. Basing enemy arty. Next question?

Things I learned:

If you roll like ####, Hazen's not going to save you.
A quick, light, anti-infantry mech is a good partner for Hazen.
Even one hit isn't enough to slow Hazen.
Her special ability destroyed a mech in one turn.
TTLs are good... but they're short ranged and light. Easy to take out.

I think fast, aggressive mechs with maybe a drop and infiltrating infantry to buy time are the best match for Hazen. If you want to play turtle, long arty, blocking and ECM on Hazen would be my choice.

Interesting, I'm sort of in the same scenerio I tend to play faction pure, or atleast fluff pure. Thanks to the situational alliances I've been playing more multifaction though.

I'm definately a fan of the SC/HL situational alliance but I think its better in larger point games.

I like using Grinder recruited to SC and the HL Kelswa however in a 450pt game that isnt too feesable.

Grinder 229 (299)
- Aiko 27 + 5SC (32)
- Decoy 38
HL Kelswa 104
HL-SC SITALL 30
17 left

yeah you could toss in a 17pt infantry but I dont think that is a very good army. Works better in a 600pt game like the storyline for this month for example.

Grinder 229 (299)
- Aiko 27 + 5SC (32)
- Decoy 38
SC Slyph x2 52
HL Kelswa 104
SC SM2 39
HK Raiden x2 30
HK Oni 22
SC ISBA
HL-SC SITALL 40
600 total

In a 450 you a Sun Cobra could be a good fit with a HL Kelswa.

SC Sun Cobra 161
HL Kelswa 104
HL-SC SITALL 30
155 left

The Kelswa solve's the Sun Cobra's problems of relatively low defense, and no ballistic attack for use against infantry.

Also I know I'm entirely too wrapped up with the HL Kelswa I'm sure there are good highlander units to use with the situational alliance but I just like what the Kelswa has going for it.

Other highlander units that I have contemplated using are the Hadur artillery, and their Fenrirs.

Here's my first RoTS build:

Peacemaker
<--Marcus Randall
3x Trackbikes
2x Shocktroopers formed up with
1x Infiltrator MkII
1x Shamash
1x Sprint Scout

I'd just assault away with Peacemaker and use the TB and ST/InfilMKII formations to protect him. Sprint Scout to get in the way of artillery and Shamash to ram it. PC cards would be Swamp and Ice Field. Swamp because it helps slow down artillery. Ice Fields because of all of the AO's I'll be using.

Thanks,
Ixnaydude

Kinda :) They have the Grand Alliance w/ House Steiner, who have the House Alliance w/ the Hammers.... Confused yet? :) So, more or less, and out here in the middle of nowhere we play it that you can form up, use SA, etc. if you want to... Makes for some nice armies since I play those factions primarily...

The new House Steiner FP card allows them to qualify for the lower (alternate) point cost, and it is an amazing card if you play it right...
I ran something similar this evening, with:
HS Hellstar (Maj Kroger)
"Bolt" (J. P. Millhew, AnP, recruited to HS)
R10 loaded out with 2 HS TTL
HS Centaur
SH Fenrir
HS FP card

Running the Artillery (volley fire, one/turn) to force things like Ms Hazen's "Black Rose" to keep moving or take 2, giving the FP bonus to "Bolt" except when Major Kroger has a good shot worthy of a 6 damage Energy attack... The Steiner version of the Hellstar seems like it just works better, at least for me with the mid dial "surprise" it gains... Not hyper competitive, but I'm sure it could be tweaked easily enough to be so... 'course, just my opinions as always :)

The hellstar probably would run well with a backup mech in Snakes in the grass with its camo and a pilot it would have a great defence.

Do you mind if I take this totally out of context, and put it in my sig?

@All I suggest we all listen to this person who is has all kind of exscuses to miss big tournements, seems to read everything I say in a way that it is negative and apperently it is my goal to misguide you all.

Whatever his problem is I dont care, if you visit this thread you know that you get an opinion based on expierance. It will be honest and trying to give you insight in the game.

@Cloudmoon I will be attending Worlds from the 16th of August to the 21st I challenge you to meet me in a game in Indianapolis, so you can show your stuff.

Ill play you in any format you wish 450, 600 unrestricted.

So put up or shut up.

Regards
Elite130

@MrPringles

Sure. That's funny.

@Elite

Yeah, okay, wire me the money for the plane ticket and the hotel room and I'll meet you anywhere you like. Until then don't say stupid #### like that "all kinds of excuses" comment. Anyone who has been to these sorts of high-level things should be sympathetic to someone whose only source of income is a paper route being unable to pony up the dough to fly to Nats and get a room while there. After all I drove several hours over ice-covered roads and bought chains for my car to face Trevor in the prerelease, and then drove up to Portland to stop him going to Worlds; clearly I'm not unwilling to face "top-tier" players. ###.

You will not be able to reliably tie down Black Rose all game as you kill her support. She's too fast. There, does that rephrasing of my essential point bruise your swollen ego a little less?

Ouch. Can we turn the temperature on the Thread down a few degrees?

If you are going to disparage Cloudmoon's lack of experience of the big arena then I may as well shut up too. My views are almost entirely theoretical.

@Cloudmoon. I thought Elite was analysing one build, one that had Black Rose as a heavy hitter and support that was basically infantry. The problem with that build is that the infantry don't kill things very quickly and unlike artillery they don't force things to move instead of shoot. As such the Sprint and the short-lived infantry get targeted very early on. Then it doesn't matter how fast Hazen/Rose is because ATVs, Shamash, Kites, VTOLs, whatever can be thrown at her. She'll be killing them for sure but her opponent will be killing her support faster. Then it comes down to (hot) Fatty facing the results of 350 points versus 150 and what's left of the 100 you threw at Hazen to tie her up.

So to be fair I think you took what was said out of context.

On the army I posted, I'm interested in everybody's viewpoint. For a start, if the Kelswa and the Snipers/TGR start unloaded there are two Garrotts waiting to pick them up. Taking one out isn't enough.

But this is moot. The counter you propose isn't a Firepower one. It's an AoD one. This army was around in AoD and was having success. I'm not asking how you counter it with AoD - I know how to counter it in AoD and I also know it's fairly competitive under that rule set.

@everyone
I was wondering how out-of-the-box people were thinking right now and whether they had anything in Firepower that could beat it. I know this army gains a tad due to Firepower. But so do other builds. Why does this army benefit? Well there are a few PCs that help this army - just like there are a few that hurt it.

For instance all of these non-jump-capable 'Mechs are gonna hate meeting a 'Mechless army using Beach.

Until then don't say stupid #### like that "all kinds of excuses" comment. Anyone who has been to these sorts of high-level things should be sympathetic to someone whose only source of income is a paper route being unable to pony up the dough to fly to Nats and get a room while there. After all I drove several hours over ice-covered roads and bought chains for my car to face Trevor in the prerelease, and then drove up to Portland to stop him going to Worlds; clearly I'm not unwilling to face "top-tier" players. ###.

You will not be able to reliably tie down Black Rose all game as you kill her support. She's too fast. There, does that rephrasing of my essential point bruise your swollen ego a little less?[/quote]

I dont know your ability as a player, your personal circumstances are yours. I am offering you a game. Expenses are your problem but you clould stay in my hotelroom for a couple of days if needed.

As you feel the need to downplay everything I say, So dont get personal.

I am surprised actually you bother entering this thread as you started your own.

Is that what is bothering you that no one invited you in this thread ? you need your name in the title ?

No doubt you know better than most when we review some ones army. So we shoud have added "Included comments from Cloudmoon"

My ego is big i admit that, but i deliver on them, do you ? I think you are all talk and Go. You have a big mouth on the forums and you talk back but i dont think even if you could afford it you could win anything of note.

Please if you are going to slap one another around can you find somewhere else to do it? Like out in the yard after the bell or something? Let's stick to discussing the Metagame, army builds and strategy and leave macho posturing to people on Jerry Springer shows.

Neutrals want to read about armies and strategies not witness personal vendettas. I wonder why the last review Thread got cut?....

So please can we get back on topic and leave personal feelings out of this?

OK seconds out ... ding! ding!

@ Kotch
I played an army like yours a few weaks after AOD-release and lost three games against players with initiative and BR Sprint + JF Fenrir.

So I changed my army and included a HL Paladin. My opponents can have the ini, cause my Garrotts are now well protected in the first round. And my own Sprint drop can attack her drops.

I try to find the hole army and post it here in the near future.

well here is one for both of you... Elite130 vs Cloudmoon

I wouldn't exactly call it "my" army because I didn't design it (and wouldn't play it). I "borrowed" it from someone considering it as a concept.

Infiltrate. That's the point, isn't it? Since the order of infiltrate has gone 1:2:1:2 then 2nd player can react to 1st player's infiltrate. Since the Sprints don't have Evade they either need to start in range so that if they fail to break they can still drop or else they have to start at Cruising.

Of course starting at Cruising brings its own set of problems - in particular the fact that you cannot drop non-JJ infantry without dropping to NOE and on top of that as soon as you drop the JJ infantry your move ends. Never quite understood that particular ruling but there you go.

So you are dropping 51 points into your opponent's lap. Of which 34 is very easy to kill and whose command is probably crucial to executing the strategy.

This is why I have never, ever, run an army like the one I listed. I really don't like relying on Command and then putting the units that grant that ability exactly where my opponent can rob me of the benefits. Great if you exchange a Sprint and a Fenrir for an Arrow IV or remove your opponent's Elite Garrott and so restrict the move. But what if you miss? Or just hit with one roll? That's 51 points completely up in smoke for relatively little gain.

Your idea of the Highlander Paladin is a very interesting one. That gives the Garrotts a 24 defense at NOE. Your opponent would be better off targeting the Paladin. That should certainly protect them enough you'd be tempted to leave their passengers in. It does make a big artillery magnet of course.

@ Kotch

the BR sprints got evade :knockedou

Regards, Xtatika