Okay, Bshugg ... I agree and disagree with you on a few points.

I agree that 'reduction of weakness' is an important concept. It could be argued, I guess that it is the foundation for the whole 'meta-gaming' that we all seem to enjoy so much. Cool beans on that one.

But I also like the direction these guys are going with the overkill effect. Its not reducing the weakness, but rather amplifying it. What happens, then, to make it succesful is that you attempt to OVERPOWER the weakness, as Maharishi stated.

Yeah, a pyre spirit is going to cause chargers trouble, but by basing and dealing shake-off, they can reduce him to a manageable level, while spreading the damage amongst several figures. Toss in a bit of 'balance' to this concept, ie a healer, and you're good to go.

>>>But if you look closely they are not really redundant. Sure they use a lot of one type of fig, but are supported to shore up any weaknesses they have. Also an important key to their success was that both were "rogue" army types (both in design, and figure selection) that could capatalize on opponents unfamialarity of the army. You will not achieve this by using 14 E@A in an army. <<<

Exactly! I couldn't agree more. Fourteen elves is a bad thing. But maybe 10 elves, backed up by an EGM, just might work. (This is just a f'rinstance, not a proposed army-type.)

You can take advantage of the 'surprise' factor, as you do when you play any new army-type. Unfamiliarity will only get you so far, however. When that wears off, you'd better have a solid game plan. Being flexible is one way to deal with this, and being 'overpowering' against those figures that cause you fits is another.

IMO, just 2 different ways to tackle the same problem.

As I stated, and I think we're all in agreement (yourself included?), the ones that have the most success are going to be the ones that have a good balance between overkill and flexibility.

100% pure overkill will have its matchups that cause muchas problemas. But 80% overkill, 20% backup plan, f'rinstance, should be able to deal a whole lot better.

You just need to be careful that the 'support' that you choose offers you the maximum benefits. This is one reason I like the EGM and to a lesser extent, the seer, so much in these armies. Rather than dilute the effort provided by the majority, they enhance and strengthen it.

(Where else would you see an EGM being used, in this ram-rich environment? ;) )

Now, as to the fell reapers. I guess that this one just comes down to a matter of personal choice. You don't think they are worth the points and actions you must spend on them, so I doubt there is anything I could say that hasn't been said already, that could change your mind. Likewise, I play 'em and love 'em, so the converse is true as well.

What could you get in exchange for those 43 reaper points? LOTS of neat stuff! The combo that I liked the most tonight was 2 *shades, ** mancatcher. They all move for free, they all have several good uses, and they're all well-worth the points you spend on them.

I just happen to think that a properly-used reaper is worth it too. *shrugs*

Sure you have to use an action on him, but he's immune to venom, ram, shake-off, etc. and has an awesome speed that makes him a threat while sitting outside of any unit's normal range (not including bound range).

I disagree that they are merely 'average-quality', but then again, that's just MHO. I never much liked elves-at-arms either, but there are those out there who won't leave home without 'em. Go figure.

You're neither right nor wrong by saying that almost any army could benefit from using different figures; I'm inclined to agree with you, provided they fit that person's playing style.

If they're a bad fit, then no. If they can do the same job for cheaper or do it better for the same cost, then cool beans. That's where the 'personal preference' part comes in, I guess.

Just my (rambling) 2¢.

Carry On, Lads.
Hitman

I decided to dig this up because of the release of Minions and the fact that this has always seemed like an interesting concept to me.

I am sure there are some changes to The Redundancy Effect thanks to Minions.

Some new ideas on this topic:
8** Khamsin Snipers
6***Khamsin Snipers

Total = 300 pts.

Pierce to deal with Toughness, Invul, and BA. Stealth to protect itself against other range. Enough of them to hit even a 21 defense with ease.

Any other thoughts on this topic?
Did Minions give this strategy a boost? Or make it weaker?

Good Lord, Shockwave! You must have dug this sucker up from page 647 or so ... :p

I really hate it when I'm the last person that replies to a thread, because I know better than to think my thoughts are the end all of any given topic. What a shame, looks like it happened again. :(

(Perhaps I'm just the last person to know when to shutup? :eek: )

As for Minions, who knows. I really don't think it helped or hindered the theory any, just gave you a bunch of different figures with which to tinker on these army builds.

As for the army you posted above, my guess is you'll be begging for a shaman or three in there, about 10 minutes into its first game.

Just my thoughts.

Hitman

Glad to find this thread.

IMO, Fell Reapers *** is a feasible Redundancy army. With the coming of minions, it only made it more viable. Only the Red Fell may be considered for this army.

Usually, I play 3 to 6 Fell Reapers*** in my army. In the past 5 months I have been using them against all army archetype, win or lose, determined to find their strenght and weakness.

In all these games, I noticed that a healer plays vital role in the army. But I also noticed the Fell, for lack of range, have to go b2b with an opposing figure and take the damage. After taking damage, it flies again and another Fell takes over. If the Fell fails to get healed or fails to break away, it dies. And usually, when a Fell dies, you can sense the synergy of the army taking a signicant setback.

So with this mind, my army of Fell Reaper, which I call, Scythe Riders, have healing and necromancy. These 2 SA is my insuarance against the disruption of the team synergy.

Live to die, and live again.

Recently, I have made a 6-Fell Reaper army. Here it is:

6 Fell Reaper *** ........... 258
1 Grave Robber *** ........ 19
1 Elven Acolyte ** ........... 23
-----------------------------------------
Exactly ............................ 300 pts

With the stealth ability of the Robber and Acolyte, they are almost invsible in a hindering terrain against ultra-range attackers, thus, they are less to worry about. The Fell can go in their wicked speed and do their wicked deeds.

Sometimes, I used the grave robber as bait. If I feel the opposing player is going to throw in a significant figs, I do so, knowing Red Robber will survive the 5 damage. If he takes the bait, I kill his figs and heal the robber later on. If not, my robber is safe.

Recently, while playing against an Amazon Drac, I found a neat trick, an old trick really. When the Amazon Drac came with 12 inches, I swooped down on her and surrounded her with 4 undamaged Fell. The next turn I pushed, 2 combat formation (12 rear arc) and 2 separate single Fell attack. The Amazon Drac died instantly, Now user of Amazon Drac, Corpheus, and even Striker isn't so gung-ho when getting with the 14-inch of the Fell.

I call this killing-trap method as Deathring. Though other figs can do this, only a Fell can this at 14-inch away in one action. If the fig have no flight, most likely it will die. Though sweep and lev may pose a problem it can be remedied by the other Fells at bay.

I also have another Scythe Rider army, here it is:

5 Fell Reaper *** ................... 215
1 Channeler ** ...................... 41
1 Grave Robber ** ................. 16
Autumn Level 1 ...................... 26
----------------------------------------------
TOTAL ................................... 298 pts

The Channeller 12-inch range allows the Fell to be 20 to 26 inches away to be engaged in a battle, knowing healing is ready at any moment. The Channeler also complements the Fell's lack of range, providing solution to Fell's weakness against single-base charger and levitator. Autumn, beside throwing a Fell 24 inch away, also acts as reserved healer in case Channeler is used aggressively.

Beside Elven Acolyte and Channeler, Crystal Protector also finds place in my Scythe Riders army.

At the moment, I am still finding a method and army composition that can go against, and win most of the time, against Dragons and Chariots - with my Fell.

Maybe 3 Fell and An Amazon?

Well Hitman, I was a very very bored person last night... I could take out 3 ** and add in 3 *Shaman:
5** Khamsin Snipers
6*** Khamsin Snipers
3* Shamans

I still have the same amount of figures as the original, do even more damage, and have MH. On top of that, even the Shamans are redundant because even they come in multiples.

reux,
I like both of the armies, especially the first one. That is a good point about using the Grave Robber as bait. The opponent would probably go after the Grave Robber and Acolyte and you could use that to your advantage.



Any other thoghts? How about:
7 **Solonavi Drones
1 ***Nightmare Reaper
1 ***Shade


Nigh-impossible to swarm thanks to all the Sweep, able to get in base contact with the enemy thanks to the Shade and BA, and even have an extra blocker/bodyguard.

Any comments or thoughts?

These types of armies could be viable but I don't think so. Especially the sniper army, I can't wait to use the snipers in conquest but I don't think they'd work in rebellion. So what if you hit me for a click?

I believe in flexiblity, I want my army to be able to handle a rapid change in tactics.

What can not bend will break. And believe me this army will break.

Well.. the only figures in Minions that I believe could be used as an overkill army are : Bombards, Drones, Channallers. Maybe not even the drones - but they are fast and deadly, so maybe they could pose a threat against some armies.

The snipers are a great figure, IMO.. but they certainly couldn't pose a serious threat playing 10 of em in a rebellion army - the 1 damage is too little to scare many figures.

OTOH - I've played once, and plan on playing more often a formation as follows :

3x***Snipers
2x*Shamen
Podo

111points.

Find me a figure that has range of 14", stealth, 12 attack, 3 damage with pierce.. and I'll try that figure out.

I dunno guys. I haven't gone back and reviewed this thread, but the new stuff doesn't look all that hot. Yandros' formation doesn't even really fit the bill (it's a cool formation, but not enough redundancy to really count).

Bombards? I don't think so. The Fells look ok, but I don't like the "move into base then attack" aspect for all of my army. Fell seems more like huge, nasty, kick-butt support. It's like saying you're going to have french fries for dinner. Sure, you want them, and they're an important part of the meal, but they need a burger, yano, and maybe a thick chocolate shake.

One thing I have seen be quite nasty in this regard (redundancy) is *** Scorpem Gunners. Balduran II on the realms has played 3 of those nasties against me with considerable effect. I can't remember the army, but there was a Krugg Seer in it as well.

Ok, time to go buy my wife some earrings, quick, before she gets home from work!

Bri

How about 300 points of Stalking Skeletons ?
Maybe just throw a Zombie Baron in to make it real fun.

lol, anything bases the Baron either capture or ML into Marrow.

As for the formation I posted - I didn't mean it to fit the bill of redundancy, I was just saying that the snipers are not good for redundancy, but that they might be good for other purposes.

as for the bombards? 10attack, 4 damage, 12" range.. true - they aren't great, but facing a handfull of them could be threatening.

Well, I just posted this and it errored out and dissappeared into the ether, so I'm pissed. Let's try again (dang internet!).

The Bombards are too slow to be effective, in my opinion. if you want 10 attack 4 dam, you go ***, and that means only 9 of them in your army, with a * shade left over. I know they have 12" range, but their slow hineys will get lapped by anything on the board, making it easy to avoid being shot at. Heck, Corpheus F/Ls a bunch in the same formation and there goes *that*, so I wouldn't even try these guys.

Now the stalking skeles are another story. If you wanna go pure redundancy, you go:

* Nightwitch x2 - 64
** Stalking skeles x8 - 184
* Stalking Skeles x2 - 42
* Skele - 10

Or to be more effective:

* Nightwitch x2 - 64
* Techno x3 - 75
** Stalking skeles x7 - 161

Of course now we're losing redundancy and getting evil. What about the Baron?

Da Baron - 82
* Nightwitch - 32
* Techno - 25
** Stalking skeles x7 - 161

I dunno. It's evil, sure. Is it a winner? Hard to say. I think the baron is a liability to this army - it allows for you to lose a big point cost figure and lose on that. I don't like it, but then again I have played the baron a lot, and I know just how I would bring him down. Esaier said than done with all of that skelle quickness around, tho...

Thoughts? (besides the thought that I shouldn't post when I've been drinking, well, except maybe on this thread)

;-)
Bri

Oh, and I just noticed that the first and last armies move all in one turn! With no formations! :eek:

That looks like fun!
Bri

Oh, and while we're talking about quickness...

...what about 12 *** Mancatchers and a * shade?

or 10 *** Mancatchers, 3 ** Mancatchers and Podo. I can think of a few names for *that* army, but none of them are appropriate for the forums. Let's just say that Podo might just get a Pimp of the Year award in *that* army...

LMAO!!
Bri

Pimpin' Podo! Ha!

Hmm...Maybe an army of nothing but Shadows? Maybe 1 Bondmaker to move a formation?

Dude, you guys are missing the best one!


12x*Mindsifter
***Utem Crossbowman

300 points


WooHoo! Magic Confusion! Gonna confuse ya!:D:D:D