That's one reason why we have a court system--to interpret all of those laws and rules that people thought were clear when they were drafted. The drafters simply can't envision all of the nuances of life when they enact legislation. That is one reason MK has a rules arbitrator. I agree Vash&Knives, we should all spend more time having fun playing the game rather than worrying about these things.

You're right, Kenntak, in real life, this is how we do it. There's just one problem with that line of thought. I didn't sign up to play Real Life, I signed up to play a fantasy game. If I want to be involved with the court system, I'll kill someone.

Again, I agree with you in spirit. The problem is I can't have fun playing this game while I'm busy worring about these types of issues - I've tried over and over. If there were some players still around in my area, I might try some more, but I don't even have that, so I don't know what's next for me and MK besides selling anything left of value and hanging around my clan forums.

I suppose the next statement I should expect to hear, which I've been waiting for since I posted initially but it hasn't popped up yet, is "stop posting, you're causing the players to stop playing with your negative comments." I've seen the comment repeatedly, and the argument is so facile it almost makes me laugh. Look at all the information we have that drugs are bad, and yet, people still do them. If someone is determined to play MK, they should be able to handle some criticism. The real undercurrent in the statement is "stop saying those things, they're true, and the truth in them may drive away new players."

So if ya don't want to talk about these things, then don't post here, but don't tell others they should "spend more time having fun playing the game rather than worrying about these things." This is a fan site, and I think 2,500+ figures and three trips to major conventions, not to mention my post count all prove that I'm a fan. I may be a disgruntled fan at the moment, but I've logged lots of good karma on this site, and I think I'm making valid points without personal attacks or inappropriate comments.

I heard that ;) .

Ummm... BLAH! That wasn't negative. That was being silly. What I mean by negativity is the constant ramblings of people who are over-critical of the best freakin game out there! I mean this IS a cool game, but this fringe minority would like to have you believe the game is falling apart at the seems.

And I AM the negativity police in these parts chummer. Watch yourself.

:)

THE SENTINEL[ag]

Not from my way it's not. I just think you're wrong. But I'm a wall anyway so what do I know. Like I said. Second player advantage exists but not to the game shattering level folks from the Order of Doom and Gloom seem to be spreading all over the realms.

Why don't we switch gears then? Can you tell me something that actually makes you happy about the game or is this some sort of sadistic binge you're on?

I really don't mean to offend... I'm just naturally obnoxious. I just can't figure out why some of you still play the game and why the ones that have quit feel the need to convince other's that the game is crappy as well.

So, if you want to come up with ways to fix second player advantage then shoot your ideas off. I'm all for it. What I HATE on the realms is the Doomsayers. This game rocks and if you don't think so there are other games out there.


THE SENTINEL [ag]

Okay Sentinel, here goes:
we're not voicing negative comments about MK because we hate it or because we want everyone else to. Quite the opposite. We love this game. But what we don't like is some (not all, SOME) of the things WK has done to it that we feel has hurt the game we love. In our areas we see the player base drying up, we see the tournament scene dissapearing, we see the retailers sell less and less MK. And it scares us because it looks as if the game we love is dying. And then we look at some of these "bone head" decisions by WK, (i.e. retiremnet) and we can understand why it's happening. And we feel frustrated, betrayed by WK, and yes, that does turn us bitter.

But that doesn't mean we hate the game. Let me tell you something, the people who do hate this game, they're not posting. they're not playing and they're not buying. they can't be bothered. they've moved on to something else.

When we post on here we're trying to send a message. We're trying to tell WK: Hey, there's something wrong here, it needs to be fixed.

Now I'm not saying that we have all the answers or that we're 100% right and you're 100% wrong. That's why we have to have FRIENDLY, RESPECTFUL discussions. But you can't have a discussion if you keep your mouth shut.

Now, as to your request for a STA solution: Make objectives worth a point per turn. that way the last second dash will only net you 1 point. Not that much. Not only that, but it will discourage turteling, give a player another chance to win (in case he shows up at the game with the wrong counter to whatever uber combo his opponent fields) and discourages armies of 1 coked up figure . Hell let's take it a step further. Make the tokens worth 20 points and add it to the point value of the figs you eliminated. Encourage combat as well as token grabbing.

Sigmazero13: You're right. DR was all printed up before K-boom reared it's ugly head. But WK also released a FAQ before DR came out and it didn't offer any clarification that SA was only supposed to be set off if your opponent eliminated you. That was many FAQ's later.
Now, to be fair, WK did finally correct this, and they have been shown to do some preventative maintence recently. (Rage Hammer) But the problem is that when soemthing like this falls through the cracks, there's a prevaling sigh of "not again!" And therein lies the problem.


Vash&Knives: Broken does not necessacarily mean unbeatable. nothing in this game is unbeatable. (Although if you didn't put the right counter in your army to whatever uber combo your opponent brought....) Broken is something that becomes very difficult to play against to the point where you get frustrated with having to deal with it and feel like dumping this game all together.

Dfazman, I love you buddy, but you're just wrong on a few things...

First, this game is as good or better on a competitive level than it has ever been. Look at Vithz coming in at 2nd place, who would have guessed it? Now sure, you have those who say just any pumped up unique can win now, but we all know that is a hollow complaint and not even close to being true. The game is more balanced now than it's been since Whirlwind and the only way you can deny that is if you simply don't play and don't know.

Second, Chroma in sealed isn't nearly as ungodly as the Striker used to be, or even the Dwarven Stomper. In fact, despite what a lot of people want you to believe, 2.0 and Dark Riders are the most balanced sets for sealed play ever. I love sealed Dark Riders because it is great. The only imbalance among mounts is the EF Dragon, and even that is small depending on the rider you pull. It is very difficult to get a pull in DR sealed that isn't, at the least, semi-competitive.

Red - You've been doing a great job lately with your posting, so let's not start losing ground. :p Seriously though, the game is far from dying and 'bone head' decisions are in the eye of the beholder, methinks. Retirement wasn't a bad decision, and I think the first 2.0 Bonestaff/Summon/Werewolf armies proved that. There's a lot of other stuff I could mention, too, but won't. I don't know where you see less and less retailers selling MK, because the secondary online market is stronger than ever. And trust me red, there are plenty of vindictive and hateful people that still post around here.

As for your STA solution, anything that requires record keeping of any kind isn't going to get done, and we all know that. Something using the dial is the best idea, and gibbings has a few good ones. Heal a click, get a command roll, whatever. Something simple like that I would go for, just to finally make all the STA people happy.

I was using CT hideouts for Revenant figures when the game first appeared. In fact, the first time I used it was against Hexian. Of course I was using archer shields and not towers, so he just incinerated them. In fact, as I recall his army, he could have incinerated a watchtower with 3 actions as well. Yes, that would mean an entire turn just to get one figure (or two which is what I was using at the time), but it was definitely better than sitting waiting for me to Revenant upside his head. That's pretty much why I never bothered to develop the concept. Had I realized armies were going to go to single uber-figs, I would have stuck with it. Instead people at my venue just moved on to other things as it wasn't seen as worth the effort. So I see absolutely no problem with the tactic, although I will keep note of it if I suspect I'll be up against someone running a single fig army in the future.

Um, I realize I'm long winded, but you're not remembering what I said and you're lumping me in with everyone else on the thread you don't agree with. LOL! I have no problem with the second player thing, as I said earlier. In my experience, a solid player in a close match can compensate for it. The only times it's been a problem for me is when I've been so far behind that I was losing anyway, so it's not a big deal in my mind.

Well, MrD, we can agree to disagree too. I have played plenty of 2.0. I just kinda stopped about two months ago because of the obvious flaws, the endless erratta, and the frustration with a company that systematically has driven away a bunch of very dedicated players and envoys in my area. I've been quiet about it here for the most part, and have been been lurking in the open forums. I saw this thread as a place to bring up some issues that I felt were important to me. Which brings me to the next point.

I guess I can expand an ealier statment I made to Kenntak. If I want to be involved with the court system *or* be sadistic, I'll kill someone. LMAO! I don't think talking publically about issues that affect a game I've been playing and loving for many years is being sadistic.

However, you have a solid point. I don't have anything positive to say at the moment - there's nothing about 2.0 that makes me happy. Playing at this point is like maintaining a physical relationship with someone you broke up with. You think it'll be fun going into it, but for the most part it just ends up hurtin' your feelings. So, apart from this thread, I won't post on others about the game. I think I've made my points. I'll be quiet. I don't have much more to say at this point anyway! LOL! I'll be around though. Time to catalog my 2.0 inventory and head over to the trading forum! Anyone got any D&D Minis for trade? ;-)

That's fine if we agree to disagree... I just really want to know what the 'obvious flaws' in the game are at this moment. I'm not talking about 4 months ago, 6 months ago, or even last week... what's wrong with the game right now? I don't think you can give me a legitimate answer dfaz, and that's all I've been trying to say in this thread to all of those 'blah blah blah, so much in MK is broken, etc.' people (not that you are one of them). And don't worry, I still love you... as long as you make it to Origins next year - even if it is to play D&D minis or whatever other #### you're playing at the time. :p

mrdbeau: i'm not saying MK is on it's deathbed. Sorry if it's coming out that way. But in my city I'm seeing a big decline. A BIG decline. The tourney scene is non existant. My closest venue held the first 2.0 marquee and H2H, and the last (?) Dungeons and I was the only person to show up. Not even the warlord showed. MTG, Heroclix, yeah, he does plenty of bussiness for them (so the store is viable) but he told me he only managed to sell half his DR stock, and that's out of 8-10 BOOSTERS! Yikes! At the flea market I'm only seeing 2 tables selling MK (alongside HC, MW, LOTR, etc...) where 2 years ago it would have been every 4th or 5th table.

Now, there is one store, that's more comics than games. But they managed to sell out their entire case of DR. (I bought their last 4 boosters last month) So there are people still interested.

Looking around the board the past year, I've seen several people say that the MK scene in thier area is thriving, and I've seen others say that it's declining. But it's not as widespread as it was before.

I'm not saying it's time to stick a fork in her (she's done). But what i am saying is we (the players and WK) should be concerned about the areas in decline. Notice that there is a problem and something should be done to correct it before it becomes bigger. I think Sorcery's a good step in that direction. I think the visual appeal of it alone should invigorate some new life into this game.

The STA: yes, i liked gibbings ideas too. They were good. This game already does have types of record keeping. We use tokens to keep track of actions, overwatch, etc. We it be so bad to use tokens to keep track of the score? Would it be so difficult to scratch little lines on a piece of paper?

And to comment on your last post:

Nothing is wrong with this game and everything is wrong with this game. There is no correct answer because it's all opinion. You may like a certain part that another person won't. That doesn't mean you're right. It doesn't mean they're right. It's just two different opinions.

Now if too many people don't like a certain aspect of this game, and stop playing because of that...

Conversly, if more people do like that aspect and continue to support the game....

WK's job, if they want to stay in bussiness, is to find that happy medium that attracts more than enough people to the game and keep it viable.

What that medium is, it's hard to say. But We should all keep in mind that these are all merely opinions, and shouldn't attack others just for having a different one.

The only thing I know is that almost every venue I've been to in the last 3 years is doing poorly, and that's been a LOT of stores, in 3 smaller cities and various townships of a much larger one. This isn't just anecdotal evidence of "it's been in decline in my town". And here on the realms I hear far more tales of empty stores than I do of rebirths.

That's a fact. Something that has little to do with opinion.

Everyone has their own little complaints, but it really seems to have added up.

I think I would rather hear the concerns of players and avoid any decline in the game by trying to solve problems rather than just letting the problem fester. Not every venue is affected in the same ways as another, but those that have it bad have a right to be heard. If one doesn't want to hear it, read and post elsewhere.

Many things are good and bad with Wizkids and their games. I can name just as many good as bad, but the topic is Wizkids and their listening habits. There are times that they seem to listen, but usually after people quit talking about a problem and the bottom line gets affected. Sometimes it goes beyond the listening part as Wizkids makes decisions without ever even asking anything at all.

One example of them possibly listening is the change in how they allow players to purchase Galactus for Heroclix. Whether it was good or bad, they seemed to try something different and made an effort.

On the other hand, Wizkids advertises and promotes many things and leave out some of the important parts. They constantly refer to venues as though they're talking about all of them. In fact, they're not. The same applies to Envoys. Here are examples of what I mean from newsletters I and my players have received:

"For many of you, MechWarrior Faction Wars looms on the horizon like a tasty, Limited Edition–laden ’Mech factory. Next month, you and your players will determine which faction gains not only control of one of the last BattleMech factories in the Sphere but also a much-needed foothold in the battle for control. WizKids is watching!"

Nowhere in this e-mail did it say that game club venues weren't intended to be allowed to run these, it was mistakenly left out. Even with the change in the approved play document, they still go on advertising it as though it will be available at all venues when it's not. Here is another that came about right around retirement time, and this caused my venue to lose many players that stayed after hearing about retirement:

"The April event season is open for event registration. The registration window closes on March 8, so be sure to sign up soon. Three new event types are open for registration this month: MLB SportsClix Leagues, the MLB SportsClix Marquee, and Open HeroClix events.

MLB SportsClix leagues and the Marquee are your first chances to run events for this exciting new game. Complete league rules will be out in March—so you'll have plenty of time to look them over before your first events—but the basic idea is that you will run events on a steady "league night" throughout the month and award prizes at the end of the month. The buzz on this game is great so far; the players may not be the same group you’ve been playing Mage Knight, MechWarrior, and HeroClix with for the past couple of years, but that’s a good thing: It means we’re getting more people into local gaming stores."

And another:

" If you haven’t signed up to be a Coach yet, do so today and learn how you can win a full MLB SportsClix set. We’ve also got the first full event season for MLB SportsClix ready for signup right now. If you want to run an MLB SportsClix event that isn't a demo, now is your chance!"

There wasn't a word mentioned about their intentions to change the document for approved play banning standar clubs from running a league. In fact, it invites all to sign up. My club did and made plans for everything. The event was approved and everything was ready to go. Players bought product of the game when right before the event, Wizkids cancels them all for standard clubs without an explanation, apology, or the most token effort to take the heat off of Envoys set up to run this for their group for the decision they made without listening, explaining, or even asking. How mad these players were can't be described, and I lost an envoy and over half of my players due to the combination of both. Most didn't come bac, including the envoy.

I see what might be changes to them listening with polls and questionaires being done. It won't bring back the lost players, but it is nice to see. But only time will tell if anything is done about the things they are asking.