Ah, a Velveeta Squadron. Why do people Mix Factions.
This is the one WizKids game with the chance to play Faction Pure.
Unlike WizKids other games, there is no chance involved when buying figures,
the game is sold Faction Pure.
I think mixed Factions should be used only in limited Scenarios.
The Rule Book Says
"All Crimson Skies planes can be played at multiple experience levels."

In other Wizkids games where figures have levels, you may play with a fig at any level you choose to pay the points for, even in games that don't use the Level Gaining Rules. The only restriction is that you may not heal a figure past the level you started it at. Since CS lacks Healing powerful enough to do this, that restriction is moot.

It has not been FAQed, but it has been discussed a lot on the WizKids Site, and the consensus seems to be that Planes may start at any level in standard games.

The Rule Book Doesn't say you can Mix Factions.
So I'll give up my Levels in Standard Games when you play Faction Pure.

You forgot to mention that quote is the second paragraph under the "Playing a Crimson Skies:Air Action Campaign". A rather significant ommision in my opinion. IMHO this sentence is more of a descriptive statement than a rules statement. I see it as basically saying "Look at the bottom of the dial, all Crimson Skies planes have leveing up information there.", and the picture to the right of the statement tends to support that. Furthermore the sentence under that states that you must start each plane off at Rookie experience level. I suppose if you wanted to take all rookies I would let you.

Good God, if only all WK rulings could be made by the ravening masses on the boards, then everything would be gloriously balanced...

Actually the rules do allude to mixing squads. In the "Collision with Other Planes" section of the rules, page 17, it states "Planes in your squadron that share the same squadron symbol cannot collide with each other." This is the _benefit_ of having all your planes in the same faction, you never have to make collision checks when you send up in the same space with your own planes. Other than that there are no rules preventing you from playing planes from other factions

Levels are only for use in campaign games or if a scenario specifically allows it.

You can mix factions in your squadrons, but Mirth has already pointed out the increased risk of collision.

can this be done?

http://forum.wizkidsgames.com/showth...threadid=38956

I am pretty sure levels are allowed in the standard game.

Brother Magneto even said that Ace figures are ok in the standard 200 point game.

Rumblepuppy/Mirth/Yosarian: With the severe limit in number of planes, and the point values of the ones we have, I feel really sorry for any player whose Envoy mandated full cost only. That pretty much mandates one of two squadrons to get anywhere near 200: Two speedies and an Ace or two heavies and one speedy. (That I can think of at Midnight anyway...)

We used planes at any level, and everyone was able to get within 5 points of 200 very easily, with a surprising variety of squadrons.

Overall today's events went really well. I think HaiKu summed it up best at dinner when she said it was one of the most fun days of gaming she had had in a while. (Don't remember the specific quote, she'll correct me)
Had eight people show up at the first venue, two plus myself in costume (and one of those was the Envoy for the later event, and took himself out of the running). So, congrats to "Mumu" HaiKu for her Norm.
The second event had 6, and I was the only costume. But, I won the Marquee (Carpetbagger is OK, but that picture rocks!) so we gave the Norm to the person who did best and hadn't yet gotten a Norm in their house. :) Let me just say right now that Charlie with Norm on her wing (thank you Follow Me) is really, really scary. I flew Double-Ace Charlie, Double-Ace Norm and Veteran Killer.

Rapierduel: I have a few pics from the first event, I'll try to get them up Monday and let you knowwhere.

HaiKu, please remind me Monday monring so I don't forget...

Oh well, off to dream of playing the Fortune Hunters...

Have a good day.
-Tad

You have to think of this from the perspective of running an event. If I get 4 players, and 3 of them had spent lots of time making and playtesting squads that were built strictly by the published rules, and then the 4th person shows up and plays a squad built with "the net rules", how are those first three going to feel? Ripped off.

You are absolutely right, you _are_ pretty limited with what you could build with. But so is everyone else if you play by the actual rules. At least then everything is balanced. And for a WK supported event where there will be (very nice) prizes on the line, balance games and fair impartial judging is the key to avoiding hurt feelings among the players. Making everyone feel like they had a fair shot at the prizes and had a fun time at the event is whole purpose of my existance at the event.

Now all that being said, if _everyone_ came with squads that were built using the experience levels, and wanted to use them, I would not have a problem letting them (since its not a ranked event). Hey, I'm not an absolute ogre, and my job _is_ to make sure people have fun. And being inflexible is no fun.

It simply comes down to the fact that I don't know the people who are coming to the event, don't know what they plan to play, I don't know if they even have net access (lots of kids, and even some adults still depend on me to provide FAQs and such because of no net access, how are they going to know anything but whats in the book?) and so in order to present a fair playing field I must make those that want to play with "the net rules", conform to the published rules.

Considering how many posts I see from people complaining about events where the judges/battlemasters/warlords didn't know the rules or made bogus rule calls, I would think folks would be happy that someone strives to run a fair event. Maybe I try too hard for the sake of my players. Maybe it's simply that you can't please all the people all of the time.

BTW - here are the possible combos I can think of:
ace plane + ace + speedy= 8 possible
ace plane + 2 speedy = 12 possible
speedy + 2 heavy = 24 possible
heavy + 2 speedy =24 possible (but 20+ points shy)

Total of 68 possible squadrons. With 2-8 people at most evets, I think there will be quite a mix even under the strict rules. I'm sure the venue will let you stick around and play a game or two after the event with whatever squad you want to play. I would suggest you bring a 'legal' squad with in case you can't use your 'net rules' squad in the event however.

Well, first it not that hard to build 200 point squadrons on the spot. Now so far I have been to two events, each run differently and the event a friend of mine went to was different too. I would guess most people who show up at your game, if they make up squadrons ahead of time, will be using the different levels and not be the minority. Useless you posted the rules at the venue. Plus everything I have heard from WK is that they recommend a standard set up but it is all up to the envoy. But hey your running your event and do it any way you want.

-ape2020

I think that everyone who looks at the game thinks the planes can be scaled. Even look at the previews they talk about using pilots at different levels, you could say thats for campaign but in a campaign they all start at rookie. If I went to a venue and they said I had to play them all at the max ability, I would still play but I would definitely point out how dumb it was of them to do that.

Well, I'm not going to beat on this any more. My intent was never to change anyones mind. I simply wanted to put out there what is legal through the offical documentation at this time so people won't be surprised if an event is run that way. I've also pretty much tried to keep my personal feelings out of any of this, but -personally- I agree that allowing figures at different levels simply makes sense. I also have a lot of personal feelings about Heroclix and Mechwarrior rules, but when I run events I must put my personal feelings about certain rules aside and run it by the book. It is simply an effort to remain fair to all. Total chaos would ensue if every player played with their own version of how they think the rules should be.

If I had to make a guess I'd say that it will eventually be in the FAQ that you can use the other levels, but until something official happens I'll have to stick with the published rules unless everyone in attendence wants to use a special house rule.

First of all i have to thank Mirth for argueing my point of this perfectly, I am deeply in your debt. I will take over from here. I should point out that I found myself exactly in the position that he described. I showed up to the tournament and found that half the people including myself had built thier squadrons using planes at only full strength and half had their squadrons had planes at less than full strength. I spoke to the envoy running the event and he was forced to rule that, correctly I might add, planes can only be taken at full strength. I admit of course that it would be nice to take some planes at less than full strength. However there is no provision in the rules for such an action and ruling that such a thing was legal would be blatantly unfair to myself and others who had designed their squadrons according to the rules. The rules at this point are rather problematic and are full of oddities and inconsistancies, for example bullets in this game zig-zag and we have a superflous rule about how games are decided if the first condition is inconclusive when it never can be. Unfortunatley we need to play the rules as they are until they are changed however foolish they may seem.
Sorry as the rules stand you cannot make such a demand on players and I feel sorry to anyone that you were an envoy for as you present not the game "Crimson Skies" but "Crimson Skies according to jamie" If you bothered to look at the rule book then you would read the line "Select planes that add up to but do not exceed, the agreed-upon build total." The wording of this is very intentional. Until that point that wizkids decides to switch to mandating faction purity mixing factions is allowed and your comments belong in the rules suggestions section not here. Wizkids will never rule that faction purity is mandated because there are only 5 planes available to each squadron and thus we would have rather few squadron configurations to use.

First of all, take your flames and insults elswhere.

The job of the envoy is to interrpret the rules given. rules that you yourself agree are problematic. clarification was asked for on the wizkids site, both in the public and envoy only forums, unfortunately no official answer was given.

This is not an isolated incident, many envoys ran point-scaled games. It was suggested here and on the WK boards to check with your envoy and/or venue.

this is a new system with some non-gameplay kinks to be smoothed out. im sorry if its not perfect

Really, i would have thought that this were the place for mildly insulting comments what with the precedence set by Jamie with
[quote]The Rule Book Doesn't say you can Mix Factions.
So I'll give up my Levels in Standard Games when you play Faction Pure. [quote]
I resent being told what to do by someone who has no backing in what is written in the rules. Sorry, you don't have much credibility with me when you tell me that despite the rules I should play the game according to what you think is right. Why is it that I should not be able to respond to posts such as these?
Exactly, what I am saying is that is certain instances there is a right and wrong interpretation of the rules. At other times there is no interpretation needed as their rules are very clear.

personal attacks are never constructive. Never. No matter who makes them.

Your interpretation of the rules is valid. So is Jamies.

You may as well agree to disagree, since it REALLY doesnt matter. I doubt you two will ever play each other.

Final word goes to the envoy. In the absence of a CLEAR ruling or instructions. they make the decision.

Can that decision be the wrong one? of course. we are only human. But at the time, for that decision, it doesnt matter.
debate the issue all you want AFTER, appeal to WK, get clarifications, boycott that envoys events whatever.

That is not to say you cannot explain your position and try to influence the envoys decision. but once the decision is made its made. Period.

The truth of this matter is that each envoy had to make a decision. You seem to think its clear cut. from the number of reports that show scaled planes, obviouly it was not.