Maybe VS should do something similar to Magic's FNM with like the winner getting 1 point towards pcq invite and a ea card current standing and playable. 2nd gets a card. 3rd gets a card. 4th gets nothing ha ha ha. As long it dosen't break any copyright laws or whatever word I'm looking for. just a random thought.

Umm...you don't get any pcq points for FNM...just a couple of rating points.

Play, but if you win, abstain from the prizes. You're not in it for the prizes anyway.

Help your opponents. Recommend formations to them, or recommend when to attack, or let them know about card combos that could help them. The more you help your opponents, the better they'll get and the more they'll help you hone your own skills!

Bring all of your extra commons/uncommons (even junk rares!) and give them away (yes, for free...) to the new players.

I do not want to eliminate the expierenced players from the hobby league. I apologize if it looked like that is what I wanted.
What I would like is for it to not affect there rating about a certain level. They can still win the prizes, and I like torch's Idea of mentoring too.
If it doesn't effect the rating at a certain point anymore though, Expierence players can still get practice, can try new deck ideas that maybe aren't complete and could spend more time teaching than worrying about I need to win so I don't lose any pts. This is more important for when new people show up for their first couple of times than it is for those who have stuck around.
I don't think this hurts the expierenced player, I think it gives them incredible flexibility in the Hobby Leagues. If they want the prizes they can go for it, if they want to help grow their local community without hurting themselves they can, and they can also teach people what the compatetive environment is like and thingss they could do to improve heir deck. All without being forced to suffer for not playing an ultra competative deck every week.
Also as the people they help out get better they eventually will have tougher compatition in their local environment which can only make them better players as well.

JMHO

I expected when I clicked on this thread to read it that it would be about how to get new people to play the game. It seems though too be about how to keep people that are already playing in. I have a suggestion or two for both.

The easiest and most effective way to get casual players to continue to play, even in the face of being beaten at tournaments by the pro-ish players is simply for the pro players to be cool to them. You dont have to give them stuff, but how about not raping them for the Beatdown they were lucky enought to pull out of their first pack? The one thing I have noticed that drives people away from ccg's is when they feel like people are trying to rip them off.
What about also, if they are in a store for a tournament you can offer to play a few games with them before it starts. Discuss decks with them, talk, you know how to be a nice guy right? I've only met a hand full out of the few hundred people I've met playing this game that I didn't like, and that's saying a lot. I played MTG for 10 years and I can't stomach more than half of those guys. VS players seem nicer for some reason.
So my advice with casual players is just to treat them decently, don't rip them off, and don't sit in the corner and only play with the 2 friends that you brought with you.

To attract new players to the game i suggest that everyone that plays this game that also plays another ccg go to your local store or big tourney and just play some games out where people can see you. I did this in March or April at a huge MTG event and everytime someone walked that looked at us I happily told them about the game. I even showed some people how to play and ran a game with them. I wouldnt at be surprised at all if they went out and bought the X-men starter that weekend.

Thats all

Ya I agree, the 'be nice' approach seems kind of revolutionary and risky, but it's safe and does work well in all sorts of situations.

And to Cold - I may come off sounding cheap, but that is a product of the conversation. I play the game as often as I can, in whatever setting I can. I am talking about people that do not have money to do the same, when they don't get anything tangible in return.

And by the way, the 13-17 year old cheap comment was meant to imply they often do not have the same monetary base that 18+ people do.

And, the $5 for a pack + most of a pack into the prize pool, I don't think really works...around here at least. I hear alot, "I just paid $5 for a $3 pack." Makes some sense, if you look at it from their point of view.

The one problem I see with the points cutoff for more experienced players is how does that affect the little guy? Ratings are based on the size of the event and your oppenents rating. I am one point below this mystical record keeping-nightmare threshold, my opponent is one point above, and he beats me. I lose points, he stays the same. Or i beat him, and I gain, but he stays the same. One of the great things about a ratings system is to play people close to you, and beat them and gain on them significantly, which won't happen if high ratings players don't change at smaller tournys. Around here there is a PCQ every 5 or 6 weeks. If you have a high rating that means if you want to bump it up you have to travel to do it. And if they ever put a cap on who can and can't play in a PCQ based on PCC's then that means you have to travel even further or wait longer for 10ks or other events. I think basically what i am getting at is that if you can't lose a few games then maybe you should grow a pair or play something else. I'm not sure though. Maybe its best if i just shut up now.

Is Vs actually in decline, or has it simply reached a state of equilibrium?

1 year and, what, 4 expansions in. The game has pretty much reached everyone that it's going to reach. You've got to figure that the growth rate has plateaued. The few amount of "new" people into the hobby is more than likely offset by the ones who have decided to drop Vs.

Now, is the hobby losing more than it's getting at this point? Are the turnouts to local tournies down? Are the PCQ's poorly attended? But more importantly, are the FLGS hobby leagues suffering?

You've got to figure, from UDE's standpoint, that it's the hobby leagues that are most important to them. The same people are going to go to the tournies, and you're going to see the same names atop the results at the 10K events. But it's down at the local level that Vs has to succeed for UDE to be happy. It's the local kids that are buying the boxes, the boosters and playing the game (hopefully). That's where the money is.

So to pose the question; "How to help a game in decline", I'm not sure if it's a decline as opposed to the natural leveling off that any game is going to experience. It's unrealistic to believe that the game will continue to experience the same level of growth over it's first several months of introduction. In fact, it's right to assume a small dip in activity/growth as the game finds it's equilibrium. I think that UDE and Vs in particular should be thrilled that the game is doing as well as it is seeing the glut of games on the market right now. There's probably too much to sustain the market right now and a purge will be coming.

Now, does UDE/Vs have the legs to sustain the plateau? Or, will the game grow tired, or worse, unbalanced?

Scott says that the game, in general, is growing, which I can see. When i talk about 'decline', I am talking about specific areas where there can be no debate the game has declined. It's grown in other areas, and it's grown more than it's declined. But, that doesn't help those of us in areas where the game has gone south. If growth can be achieved in those areas, it might take more of an effort than growth where the game is naturally expanding. I think most of the ideas here are based on growing the game in those weak markets, not growing the game *overall*.

To add a little to what CF said. Where I play, we actually give each other advice. The guys who aren't as knowledgable of the game ASK questions. We don't just continuously dominate the younger kids. We give them suggestions on better picks and better plays. How many times have you guys attempted to help out someone who didn't know as much about this game.

Do you just make fun of people when you win? Do you even care?

I'm playing again locally tonight, it's the first local since 11/19. I attended on 12/03 and just watched the people play. When someone played a card wrong I pointed it out in-between games/matches so that they would play it properly next time.

One thing to keep in mind is my "local" tournament is 45 minutes to an hour away. So most of the time if I'm doing a 2 hour total trip, I want to play.

I also want to point out that some people aren't receptive to instruction/correction no matter how "nice" you are when you impart the advice. While I feel I'm far from a scrub, I certainly don't play the game perfect and need competition to stay sharp. Therefore, it's in my best interest that these players get better. I have found the only way to get better is to play people as good as or better than one is.

That's what I meant instead of rating points give pcq points.

This is like all games. I Play heroclix and if there was a pro thing for it i would be in it.I have been to the worlds and placed top 8 twice. Anyways when clix first started in my area we had like 20 plays for like the first 6 to 8 months, now what like 3 years later we get normally lik 4 to 6. I win most to the time and i knowi have scared off my share of oppenents cause i am very good at clix. But I thought the game was not doing will but it was very far from the truth sales have been great for them for years.

I think people just switch games a lot and don't always come out cause they find a group of friends that makes it feel not so competitive.

Another point I use to play magic alll the time with my friends. there was 4 of use played every friday and more. it was so fun then we tried tournies and got smoked week after week so we stopped going cause the enviroment is different. I think this is the same with vs.

IMO

I tried to do my part today for a kid who wanted to make an XMen deck with what he had, no rares except for 7-drop Wolverine. The player who finished first Sunday was helping him build it with what he had and I was helping the TO, who was also running a high-level Spycraft event.

I had 2 Siege Perilous in my trade binder and I just gave one to the kid. He'll make better use of it than I will.

I do worry about the game though, there's only one store in St. Louis metro that has good turnouts and lots of VS product is sitting on shelves. Stores are talking of putting it on sale. Yugi and Inuyasha are dominating right now, with VS, Magic and Pokemon fighting for third.

I am so for Event Splits for big tournaments. I don't know why companies don't do that. I mean, if UDE does registration the night before, this shouldn't be a problem. I think it's a time issue, but here's how I see it breaking down of how to divide the divisions: (By 4 standards)

- If they've been in a Previous PC event
- If they qualified via Ranking
For these 2, it really breaks down, like if they attended 2 PCs, then 1 PC's, then by rankings. You split em all ways, for the best & fairest matchups.

- If they qualified via PCQ/10k

- # of PC points they have
This might not have much significance, but imagine having a rematch in Round 1 of PC#2's finals. It might seem great, but, you'd really want it for later.

How many divisions?
96 - 192: 2 Divisions
193 - 312: 4 Divisions