The bottom line is that sooner or later Marvel and DC are going to run out of recognizable characters.

Theres probably close to 100,000 characters in each universe if you count all the minor ones but only about 1,000 are identifiable. They could probably keep both sides going for another couple years without repeating a single character, however in order to keep interest they need to have it related to some popular characters in some way.

I mean if the next set that came out for Marvel was the alien race set with Shi'ar, Skrulls, Kree and the Brood it might be nice to us real deep comic fans but alot of people may begin to lose interest only because most non comic book readers have never heard of them. I expect that after a couple years the general census of the VS community is going to be asking "who the F### are these people coming out?". And the answer from UDE will be, "we've done everyone else".

As of right now we have hit about 70% of the most popular characters in both universes. Once the other 15% is done, its going to be harder and harder to keep popularity alive with virtually unknown characters.

Magic can go on forever because they make it up as they go along, VS at some point is going to have to scrape the bottom of the barrel for characters since they have preset information that they utilize.

I'm a big comic buff, big fan of VS, but you know nothing lasts forever. Sooner or later it will have to end, so try not to dwell on it and just enjoy it while you can.

nothing is stopping UDe to making new version of the big characters, to make new sets of the most popular teams, either reprints are add to their roster. JLA, avenger, x-men.. these teams have an almost unlimited supply of guys to make

and they can always combine obscure teams, like x-staitx, anti-matter, with the main teans of the set, marvel knights, green lanters.

also, after a couple more years, once the game has a devoted player base, the characters will mean less and less, as the name "VS" will sell itself. just like magic, people will buy what ever VS set is out, just becuase it is VS.

That's really a very good point. Once VS has established its brand, people will pick up new sets regardless of what characters are featured. There are people who do that now and we are barely in Year Two.

Plus, clever use of marquee characters can mean a lot of product for a long time. There are plenty of teams that need to be revisited (X-Men, Superman, Spidey) and plenty of guys we have or will see who can carry their own set (Iron Man, Thor, Flash, Wonder Woman, etc.). Ten years of sets is being conservative. And seriously, do you seriously think comics will sit around and twiddle its thumbs between now and then? As VS continues on COMICS WILL CREATE MORE CONTENT ON WHICH VS CAN BASE NEW SETS. See the upcoming Crisis set for proof.

So no worries. In the right hands, VS will continue forever.

Prediction: The Alpha Flight set that's been hinted at will actually feature Wolverine and a "Weapon X" team as its headliners. Alpha Flight will be the second team, because of its ties to Logan's early history.

billking: just to nitpick (and boy am I good at that;) ) the average $10K is more like 90+ people...I can't think of more than a couple that were below 80 and the big convention ones draw 120-150.

As for popular vs. obscure - Marvel Knights did better thn Superman and Spider-Man because it was a better set, even though the vast majority of characters within it were less popular and less recognizable - Sure, Daredevil, Elektra, Ghost Rider and (especially) the Punisher are popular, but 4 characters do not a full set make, and the 'Marvel Knights' properties are low rent compared to the numbers that the Spidey comics sell...

It is very simple to mix and match, and there will always be sets that return us to the popular characters, timed with the movies to draw in new people, bringing the game to the attention of comic and superhero fans who don't play the game.

Keep in mind several other aspects, though.

1) Many gamers who play and love this game have no investment in the characters. I can't tell you how many emails I've received thanking me for my articles on comic history - even for characters like Green Lantern and Ra's al Ghul - and even the FF and Doom! - all of which are hardly obscure. These players will play and love the game for the game, even if it's a Great Lakes Avengers set.

2) You can often tie major comic book themes to the game - like the Crisis set, or even the Marvel Knights set - without the need for the uber-popular characters. Marvel Knights aren't even an oficial 'team' as much as a line of comic books - yet they amalgamated those characters into a team. Just as they did with Crime Lords, Underworld, Anti-Matter, Emerald Enemies, etc. And Crisis, conveniently tied to the Infinite Crisis' release, will also tie a set to a theme before thinking of the individual characters involved - the Crisis name will likely sell more tha the characters featured in the set, whether or not those characters are A-grade or obscure.

3) As has been pointed out, remember that the driving point, the selling point if you will, of a set is the marquee. This still leaves room for obscure characters and teams to fill in the rest of the set, much as X-Statix or the Squadron Supreme did. In this case everybody wins, because many who buy the sets because of the Avengers or Punisher learn about new comics and characters and potetially explore those comics, while fans get their obscurity and deep comic history addictions salved.

Nobody loses out, because the marquee attraction is there, the obscure is there, and you only have to invest a small portion of the set to the marquee, while you can devote a lot of space to the exra characters, leaving a lot of rom left for more sets with more marquee names...

And finally, to swing this back on topic, the one thing Magic lacks above all in terms of retaining fans is investment in the characters, One thing that separates Vs from Magic is that you don't see people on the Magic sites and boards droolng over the cards in terms of what the card IS, you only see them drooling over what the card DOES. You don't hear people complaining that the latest dragon was treated poorly and its powers weren't properly represented. you don't see people saying just how cool it is to have that Samurai Legend in your deck.

Is one better than the other? I think there are good arguents for both. I personally prefer having a collcetions of cards that I recognize, that I have an investment in. One complaint I always had about Jyhad/Vampire the Eternal Struggle, was that White Wolf threw asde a rich world that they had created, with very cool characters in their manuals and novels, and created a completely new set of characters for the game. So not only does it cause confusion when you see different names and images from what you're used to, you lose the personal investment you had in the game. I like that personal investment, it enriches the game for me. Magic doesn't allow me to enjoy that personal investment and the closest I've ever seen to someone HAVING that form of investment was a friend who was obsessed with Angels and Dragons, and made a deck each around those themes. That's not enough for me personally.

But I still have high respect for BOTH games, even though I prefer one over the other. I don't think the questio of 'better' can be answered, as it's too subjective a question...

I bought a ton of Mk for Punisher (I have the worlds coolest Punisher tattoo)...my buddy bought a ton too..

Characters sell...the pro's may only want the best...but the casual fan will pick up the slack

Sure - and here may even be a limited number of people who actually bought more for X-Statix. Or Dracula.

What I'm saying is that a single character or two can sell a set, let alone a single team. And that there are an equal number of people who will buy it for the game, not caring who the characters in the set are.

It's not necessarily a matter of 'the best' - just that different people look for different things when buying the game.

I'd put your Punisher tat against my Spider-Man and Captain America tat any day of the week.

Mine is pretty awesome bro, its hard to top...

I would love to see some pics of yours though...got a link to em...or can you email them?

Mine takes up half my arm...so its more of a sleeve than just a flat pic...thats why its hard to beat, cause in size alone...it doesnt get much better

If you need a good artist in the chicago area send me a pm..

Sorry to stray off topic...magic bashing commence

I realized after doing it that I made a math error anyway. (I gave every attendee an EA; this does not happen IRL.) Let's say the average 10k has 120 people, just to be... generous.

Typical VS 10k:
120 attendees
$12,800 cash prizes
EAs distributed to Top 64 (easily $20 profit via eBay)
Subtotal/person (EAs): $10.67
Subtotal/person (cash): $106.67
Total prizes/person: $117.33

(Compare to the average prize/person for a Magic Grand Prix: $62.50)

You are, however, not taking into account one thing. How many new characters or updated characters/teams will there be in the ten year interim? Once you've created all 100,000 characters, how many new ones will have come out, how many new events and teams and the like would have formed? Alot. Vs will never run out of ideas or characters. It will only run out of steam. The depth of the intellectual properties involved are virtually inexaustible.

Well, there are at least 2(somethimes 3) PTQs a month and many GPTs, and the winner gets to CHOOSE between the cheque and the cash.Only 1 PCQ a month.

Magic GP pays 500 to 9-16 and 250 to 17-32, thats 12 slots deeper than VS and 50 more than the minimum VS payout. Also, it is unfair to compare tha player skill levels and size of the events, magic IMO, is an international language, worldwide phenomemnon, VS, is just a card game.

Magic PT may have less prizes, but when you factor in player of the year stndings and the pro player club and the EOY payouts, I'd say I'd rather be a magic pro than a VS pro...

Actually you have to factor in Indy VS as well, which has been confirmed, with TOS of untapped character potential

Orrst: actually (nitpicking again!) it'd 8 slots deeper than Vs, which now pays to Top 24... =)

I actually play both magic and vs. I honestly don't think magic eill ever die down. the reason being that magic has been around for a long time, and the fact that it has accumulated so many players is amazing. Even if Vs eventualy tops magic, magic will still be there. all of the die hard magic fans will still be out there. I personaly think Vs is a lot more fun to play, though Due to it's simpler game-play, and really easy to understand rules. Magic on the other hand has so many rules and is harder to attract the younger population. Vs on the other hand...... I'll bet you couldn't find a kid who doesn't know who spiderman is. in conclusion, they are both very powerful TCGs, Magic being the first (and currently most popular) will always have it's diehard fans. Vs will be able to attract new players due to thier ability to relate to the characters in the cards.

And if they get desperate there are other places they can go. Video games are basically just interactive comic books, after all.

Magic is a whole lot more friendly to casual players than VS because of the looser structure of the game. You can play Magic with all guys or no guys, you can end the game turn 4 or turn 40, you're not constrained to any combination of teams, your huge 5-card combo isn't susceptible to being attacked out from under you, etc. For the creative types that aren't hardcore comic book geeks, Magic is a lot more fun to play casually. VS is a lot better as a competitive game because there is less luck involved and almost every game is actually a game instead of frequent manascrew losses or wins as happens in Magic.