Thus isn't that there are too many people that are GOOD at Vs. out there, beating all those bad players soundly?

I could see an argument that the only way to enjoy Vs. is to be 'okay' at it [which can still lead to losing records].

This doesn't seem to be a case of the game being too complicated ... but instead too competitive. Too high a concentration of players are good enough to be able to stomp the 'bad' players soundly.

Now, the problem becomes that these 'good' players are still going to get bad records, as it's IMPOSSIBLE that everyone gets winning records. Without 'scrubs' they have to be REALLY good to rise above the pack.

Having the 'average' player being better than in other games means that it's harder to be the best. This, however, does not necessarily mean that playing the game well is complicated. It seems instead to indicate otherwise.

It may be a result of the initial 'plan' for the game targetting the 'average or higher' player, instead of the casual player. With the skill level of the average Vs. player being higher than usual [as a 'second or later generation game', it attracts people that have already played card games, instead of attracting people that would have it as their first].

[quote=erick] A lot of good ideas and words... [quote]

Please don't think I am trying to call you out or say you are wrong. I think there is a possiblity something is 'wrong' with VS. I just am not sure it's the game itself. I wonder if Collectible Games not named MTG have a limited lifecycle no matter how good they are or how good the license is. There may just be a finite number of people who are wired to play these games, and sadly since magic is the oldest game, it got to a lot of them first. This may have just been a trend of of the late 80's to the late 90's of getting a lot of new people invovled. Kids who are the age I was when I got invovled in CCG's now have a lot of other things they can do with that disposable income that a.) is cheaper, b.) is more socially accepted and c) doesn't depend on others participating. Hopefully I am wrong but I see a lot f the same guys playing Magic at the store that were playing Magic when I started, I see some kids playing Yugi, but very few of them have appeared to make the jump to a different CCG over the years most just seem to fade out of their game and away from gaming in general. Well I guess time will tell.

I really blame MTG Online, and MMORPGs in general for the decline of CCG numbers, here's to hoping other people get as bored with them as I did.

Not at all... again... I tend to like these type of discussions as opposed to "My dad flames better than yours!". It's enlightening to hear other viewpoints on matters of game design.
Probably more true than not. Non-video gaming as a whole is on a down tick.
A lot of MtG players I know play MODO and rarely buy actual Magic Cards. The Internet connects people but also disconnects people at the same time.

The other things is most players don't want to abandon one game to play another, so they have to balance time and money between 2 or more games and it comes down to which one has more people playing it. VS' barrier of entry (too many teams, complex game engine... in my opinion again) just make it easier for people to stick with the game they are currently playing since there is no real incentive to switch (ie no mid-level tournament support, no big money Pro Circuit... etc). UDE is creating some in-roads with the new Hobby League system but I'm wondering how long that can be sustained without higher tournaments for incentives.

I really don't worry about the game sinking away as long as there are cards because of the license. This may sound silly but the VS fans that exist right now in my area just love the whole Comic aspect of the game and have become addicted to how this game is played. I get the feeling as long as the sets are MTU/Infinite Crisis quality, they will still be at the shops playing. I think we may not gain a massive amount of players but we will never lose everyone, like Mage Knight/Pirates/Hero Clicks did in my area. At least I hope not.