I would think 4 years of data, players opinions, TO opinions, sales figures and working in the largest VS market isn't a "very small cross section".

I guess I need to apologize for wanting to address things that will help keep VS around for the long haul.

First, VS not being in the top 3 (if that's still true, MTU and Hellboy sold quite well) has more to do with UDE's actions, or lack thereof, from about 1-2 years ago. If you look back, I and others were posting 16 months ago the game was healthier at the top than the bottom. Yet UDE focused on OP and pro level. It got to the point UDE completely neglected low level play. Hobby lg especially suffered. UDE (through contracted party apparently) are the ones who basically killed hobby lg.

It takes a long time to see the end results of these major actions or inactions. But a year or so later they saw people were really only playing at major events.
They don't need to change the engine. Please don't make assumptions that they do need to or that they plan to.

The UDE regime changed and I'm guessing the budget was also reanalyzed. They saw the game didn't have the strength in the root level so that's where they've laid the focus. I give them credit for working hard recently to turn things around.

The online game is pretty complex at high levels. I vaguely recall the raid sizes got smaller with the exp, but when you had 60 person raids, each person having a plethora of spells and abilities, the game got complex. There was/is a definite skill level and many clans won't let you play with them if you're not on their level or if you don't sink enough time into it (60+ hrs/wk).

The thing is, it's a gradual increase. Level 1 is simple enough. As your character grows, you the player also grow with him in your ability to use all the new abilities that come/grow with leveling.

VS analogy. When breaking in a new player, let them focus on a few mechanics at a time and as they master them and play more, introduce them to other mechanics a few at a time until that master those. Rinse & repeat.

I think the main thing from this thread I've gotten is that Erick really likes the WoW engine. That's fine. I don't. It's not horrible (Overpower like), but I found it below MagiNation. I know a lot of others that don't care for it either.

Erick, you mention the top 8 of WoW regs didn't have all top pros. Maybe that's because the majority of people who got into WoW TCG did it for the flavor of the game.

Here are the reasons I believe for WoW's successes:
1) Get online WoW swag. Remember, people were paying $300-$400 for an online mount which was only good to be used in the mid levels of a characters life. Seriously, Blizzard could have just coded the swag up, sold it themselves and made a killiing.
2) Flavor text -- living the online game via cards.
3) Playing the card game with friends.

I can accept you like the WoW TCG engine. Can you accept that maybe the WoW engine has little to do with the success the game has had? That maybe not everyone cares for the WoW engine? That maybe not everyone would play a superhero card game if it were in an engine they did not enjoy?

Anecdotal evidence is an informal account of evidence in the form of an anecdote or hearsay. The term is often used in contrast to scientific evidence, such as evidence-based medicine, which are types of formal accounts. Anecdotal evidence is often unscientific because it cannot be investigated using the scientific method. Misuse of anecdotal evidence is a logical fallacy and is sometimes informally referred to as the "person who" fallacy ("I know a person who..."; "I know of a case where..." etc. Compare with hasty generalization). Anecdotal evidence is not necessarily typical; statistical evidence can more accurately determine how typical something is. -- quoted from Wiki.

Dude you may not be wrong, but you can't prove your right with those things.

I think grendelboy is catching on here....

Interest You In a Pint?

No?

FACE SMASH!

Pint, Erick, there's such a thing as the PM system. Or rep system.

CaptainIreland loves erick, got it

CaptainIreland wants erick to be his best friend, got it

Why would erick be CaptainIreland's best friend? :noid:

No need to apologize, we love you unconditonally.

The problem is you're not talking about keeping VS around for the long haul. You're talking about keeping some other imaginary WoW engined superhero game around.

It's not that hard because it has all been broken down to a script once and encounter is beaten. Everyone knows exactly what to do before it ever starts so really you are just move here, cast this, move here cast this, it's complex for the leader and the main tank, but raiding at this level can be pretty robotic for alot of the other people. The interesting part is when people don't do what they are supposed to do. (Thanks Leroy Jenkins!)

No, no. You do wonderful things for the game and community. Please continue!

But the scope of this "What if VS had used the WoW engine" thread doesn't fall under keeping VS around nor could you have expected it to be met with warm and fuzzies. I half wondered if you just thought things had been slow the last few days (they had) and thus posted some flame bait. :)

I'm probably going to get busted again for this... but casual players don't have time for this. The market that most companies want to buy their cards is the biggest one... that would be casual players who buy packs here and there, play some games, go to Hobby League... but don't make it their life.

I have these players who have been playing VS for 2 years... but they don't play it every day or even every week. Yet they still do not get many of the details of the chain, formation or how effects are templated and what order they should be played. So when they play with higher level players, they get frustrated.

A less complex engine creates a more level playing field... I think most of you agree with that.

I did PM him for the sake of this thread.

However, pint has requested that any further responses be public.

...and now I KNOW grendelboy's got it....

Isn't Wiki "anecdotal"? Heh.

TCGs aren't really a scientific field so "anecdotal" evidence is all we have. Many things in life take into account human likes and dislikes, that's why we have polls and surveys. That's what marketing is all about... the opinions of the target market.
Are you saying that the opinions and statements I hear are inadequate because by definition they are "anecdotal"? By that sense, UDE should have never created the Elite Series because that decision was based on "anecdotal evidence".

For most companies... public opinion drives their business so this doesn't make sense to me.

EDIT: Typo

I'm sorry if that's what it seems like I'm saying. It's not that I really like the WoW engine... I am just wondering if VS would be better off if it used a simpler engine 4 years ago. I've been told I can't say that it would be for sure but "anecdotal" evidence seems to be in my favor.
Actually, a good percentage of the players are TCGers. The reason why I said that is you don't have to be a "pro" to do well at WoW.
I'm sorry I can't. It's all about accessibility, the KISS acronym exists for a reason... the simplest path will usually net the best results.
I already know that. This thread as well as numerous posts all over Realms state this. I never said the engine was perfect... so I'm not sure why everyone keeps gravitating towards this "erick loves the WoW engine" sentiment.

But I firmly believe that if the VS engine was simpler, if there were less teams and if there was more focus on the recognizable characters that VS would be more successful. Anecdotal or not... there is a reason why more people can learn and play checkers but not chess, why it's easier to build decks in Magic and why Ghost Rider's 1-week box office didn't equal Spider-Man 3's 1-day take.

It's strange how this thread has moved in this direction, I really just wanted some open-minded discussion about what if VS used the WoW engine. Questions like how would Batman attack w/out a Weapon is a good example of what I was aiming for. I admit that I helped take it this way and again I apologize.