You still carry this idiotic crusade?

The inherent loss of having to build your deck around 3 cards, assembling them in game AND losing 3 cards from hand on one character where 2 card of an opponents can stop you doesn't justify the power level of them?

COME ON.

The ability to ready X number of times and STILL CAUSE BREAKTHROUGH is the problem. Speedsters should take out multiple people not do more damage than Pyrotechnicals or whatnot.

People.

Stop scapegoating the problems of characters onto the Artifacts. Yeah they're powerful. If their so inherently busted, try running 1 of each in your deck. I gaurantee that without the support they need you won't get too far.

I am one of many who think that the Fatifacts are brusted.

However, Guglio attacks me of all of those people.

Do you do random select or something?

Look, admit it, Gugs. You don't think they're broken, busted, or brusted because they're DC cards. If those Fatifacts were Marvel stamped, oh hell no. Guglio would be all over that saying "Oh they're broken and yadda yadda yadda."

That's just how you work, I suppose.

But.

To each his own.

P.S.: Don't call my "crusades" or myself idiotic. That in itself is idiotic. That's like a lawyer starting a debate with "You're an idiot." Even if I AM an idiot, that doesn't have anything to do with this argument.

You clown face.

Yeah but people use logical debates.

Just claiming it and not backing up doesn't do much.

You don't claim how they are broken, just that they are. The only proff you've ever shown was giving them attributes they didn't have.

Care to back up your arguement?

P.S. Hypocriticalness FTW [/end scarcasm]

Look at what that deck needs to reliably hit the Fate Suit:

4 Ted Kord
2 Amulet
2 Helm
2 Cloak

That's 10 cards taken up in a 60 card deck. IDK if any of the other cards listed in that list help equips but, I'll stick with 1/6 of the deck that is there just for the fate set. Let's say you never see a Ted, then you'll probably draw one or two but not the set. They're not broken just because they take up enough deck space so that you're sacrificing other potentially more game breaking cards for a chance to complete the set.


Coolexplosion

The Random deck that GreenLantern631 and I played against was actually using 4x Jaime Reyes as well as Ted Kord, because it needed Ego Gems as well as the Artifacts, and it wanted to use New Baxter Building on every turn as well. Hitting the whole Fate set wasn't critical, just Cloak.

IMO, the Artifacts were a minor part of the deck. When I made a list of my own for the deck, I used B.P.R.D. Signal Device instead, because it's stronger protection. I do think the Random deck is borderline broken, but I don't think the Artifacts have much to do with it.

While I agree Random has the potential to be busted and create some sort of infinite loop or something along those lines, at this point in time he does not appear to be much of a threat. He has great potential but nothing yet meriting a ban or even an errata (granted I have not played against a dedicated Random deck but I do believe it would be somewhat fragile).

Also, I do not believe the artifacts to be much of a problem either. At the very least, one would need around 12 slots in their deck to make them work efficiently (4 tower, 4 helm, 2 cloak, 2 amulet give or take). Moreover, they greatly deplete one's hand and thus the amount of options one has. Aside from quickfate, the only other deck in which I believe they work best is the Secret Society build. Finally, they are managable by either bounce, ko or remove from play effects (ie Red Shift) as well as equipment hate (granted one must have some sort of tutorable effects to attain the equip hate cards in an appropriate stage of the game). As previous posters have mentioned, the BRPD Signal Device is more versatile than the cloak.

In summary, Random and the artifacts are fine for the time being.

The artifacts are very powerful. That, no one can doubt. They can easily turn a game around if you were losing it. Or completely lock a game down if you were already winning. But that does not equal broken. Just very powerful.

The same argument goes for Enemy. It is a very powerful card. But it's a search card. It does nothing other than get a character. That in itself is not broken.

Quicksilver is not fair and could be considered broken. Random could be considered broken. Causing breakthrough while readying is potentially game breaking. And Tommy proved you don't need the artifacts to win with quicksilver. Which only proves that quicksilver is still the one that should be considered broken, NOT the artifacts.

Punisher Fate is pretty damn harsh. How do you beat that? Well there are ways, and if that means sacrificing one of your characters so you can Finishing Move him, guess what, it would be well worth it. Then they have to start all over.

I do think Random is much like Quicksilver. But both have their...balancing factors if you will. Quicksilver needs a face up row. Random needs cards in hand. Now maybe Random should have had something to say that he cannot cause breakthrough if you use that ability. Problem solved. Maybe quicksilver too. But they don't. So if anything, they should be considered on the chopping blocks. Artifacts not even close.

I was going to make a really long, rambly argument about why the Fate Artifacts aren't particularly broken, but who cares, it boils down to this: take the Fate Artifacts out of the Random deck, and it's still ridiculous. Take the Fate Artifacts out of the Quicksilver deck, and it's still ridiculous. QS and Random can still rock you more than hard enough to piss you off without the Artifacts, so getting rid of the Artifacts, ultimately, doesn't even matter, especially given the existence of the BPRD Signal Device.

However, if you use the BPRD Signal Device, you are giving up any other equipment [unless you have a trick, which you would still allow another equipment in addition to the Fate Artifacts]. +4/+4 > +1 ...

Each is annoying in it's own way. Quicksilver was ridiculous in Modern Age without the artifacts ... however there were decks that competed with it, and it was a Modern format that had very few OTHER cards to deal with him.

Part of swinging twice involves not being stunned the first time. Having +4 defence helps immensely. Having +4 attack at all times in useful as well.

Quicksilver doing damage after readying is "bad".

Random is similarly "bad".

The Fate Artifacts are "bad".

Together ... they are broken.

One of the few ways to deal with a character that re-readies is to stun it, whether in combat or not. When you increase their defence by 4, and make it untargetable, it becomes a lot harder to stop the stun. All the "exhaustion" and "cannot ready" effects [or almost all of them] target characters. With Moon Knight or Sam Parrington, you ready the character DURING combat ... which means that evasion, for example, can be used defensively.

The characters that ready and still do breakthrough would not be as big of a problem if not for the fate artifacts rendering most of the cards available in the metagame that can slow them down useless. Barring that.

The cards from MTU that prevent a character from readying should be able to deal with those characters ... but they don't because of the equipment that is always present to use the characters to their fullest potential.

I realize that arguing this is ridiculous - minds are rarely ever changed on a message-board argument (or, I guess, in many arguments in general), but I don't see making a character big and untargettable to be a broken ability. In a non-degenerate deck, it's easy enough to get over, and then, sha-bam, you probably just won because they just dedicated over 1/6th of their deck to that character that was just KO'd/rendered obsolete because if they don't kill you within a turn or two of getting the set out, it no longer matters. I've beaten plenty of decks that got the full Fate Set on a character, and I'll beat plenty more, because, hey, it's not hard. Now, hitting my Burn Rubbers by 3-4, that's hard...and something I don't have as much control over.

Quicksilver can kill you on turn 3/4 without the Fate Set. That's broken. In no way is that not broken. You can argue that, yes, if you are running those specific two-drops from MTU, you could stop him...but I could just ask, if you just want to toss out random 2-drops to stop him, why you aren't running Gotham SWAT on 2, 3, and 4...that would certainly stop QS in his tracks, targetting-be-damned, or, hell, Burn Rubber would do the trick. The point is, depending on hitting tech by turn 2-3 is a crappy situation...and knowing for a fact that you WILL lose if you don't get 'lucky' enough to hit it early is an even crappier one. Not an impossible one, but certainly not a fun one by any means.

As to stun-back, it's been pointed out that, at least for the Random deck, they can just throw Sneak Attack in. Sneak Attack and BPRD Signal Device is more effective for less cost than the Artifacts. Even in a QS Deck, BPRD is very, very nearly as effective. QS is a 3/3, a 3/4 when he gets a Signal Device. +a Royal Family, and he's a flying 5/6...so not likely to be stunned by most 3's...and can attack the 2 first anyways, for 1 less card, likely an attack pump, let's say +3 ATK...that would make him an 8/6...which is actually higher than the 7/7 he's be with just the Artifacts, for fewer cards. Even without the Artifacts...QS can still attack plenty easy without getting stunned back, and I think that's what it comes down to for me. The Artifacts make it a bit easier to abuse certain cards...but without the extremely abusable cards in the first place, the Artifacts are, to me, perfectly fair.

I guess I just don't understand where all the outrage at the Fate Artifacts comes from, so maybe I should apologize. I've played against plenty of decks with the Artifacts in them that I was able to beat without any 'tech' cards thrown in. They do make degenerate cards degenerate-er, but why is it okay for the degenerate cards to exist in the first place? What's so special about them that gets them so much pity? Without the Artifacts, they'll still be degenerate...but without the degenerate cards, the Artifacts won't be. Seems an easy equation to me. But, it has been pointed out, I'm sometimes stupid, so I apologize, and then go to bed, which will be followed by a crappy breakfast and then class.

Ok, so Random is a problem ... especially with the artifacts.

Ahmed is a problem ... especially with the artifacts.

Quicksilver is a problem ... especially with the artifacts.

Punisher is a problem ... especially with the artifacts.

They show up in a large number of decks, in a large number of places. The "just stun and KO the character" 'solution' works just as well against most of those characters as well.

And it's not necessarily a situation of EITHER quicksilver is broken OR the fate artifacts are broken. It is actually possible that both are.

AND, ultimately, it's not all the artifacts that are broken ... just the cloak really. The fact that as part of getting you +4/+4 flight range and identity dr. fate and card cycling package, you ALSO make it impossible for your opponent to target your character at all. [And the fact that most of the effects that COULD help against abusive characters like Quicksilver target the character ... don't even get into the fact that, in the set, they made an equipment-hate card that targetted the character ...].

The artifacts aren't fun. Ban them.

Quicksilver isn't fun. Ban him.

Random is neat. Errata him not to cause break.

Ta-da, problem solved.

I think a better solution for Random is an errata to limit his effect to once per turn.

Your opinion of what of is fun and what isn't, is subjective. Ban yourself. :tired:

Also, UDE has stated many times they do not like erattas. Otherwise, we would of had that whole overload problem cleared up a long time ago.

hehe

fartifacts