Age of Apocalypse is by far the most famous story in which AoA Iceman appeared, and he was a hero there. Given that, my instinct is to say that he should be a hero for drafting purposes.

From what I can tell from Marvel’s wikia, when X-Force revisited the AoA universe, AoA Iceman was still with the X-Men when the story began, and then had his Face-Heel turn. That doesn’t sound like a character who has been a villain or even neutral for the majority of his existence.

I feel it is too black and white to just label someone permanently a Hero or Villain based on what they spend the majority of the books as. How long until the Black Cat gets to be a villain or neutral? When her current "Villain" books overtake the number of her good and neutral books? When does superior spiderman get to become neutral, another decade of Doc Oc being good? Prelate Summers was on the wrong side, but according to the books he was actually trying to do what was right throughout the books until Weapon Omega, and even then it was because of the celestial tech preventing the restoration of his original thoughts. I also think you are ignoring Wizkids thoughts on the matter. They gave all of them the same ability "SURVIVOR OF THE AGE OF APOCALYPSE... FOR NOW". How many times do we see heroes and villains all given the same exact team trait? The name itself shows support for my position, that this universe is primarily shades of grey.

The game is based mostly on characters from Marvel and DC, whose decades of stories are overwhelmingly about heroes and villains. Sometimes characters change, but let’s face it: a lot of those changes are temporary changes made to increase sales. It’s sensible to wait a while and see if a change from hero to villain (or vice versa) sticks before recategorizing a character for draft purposes. To take your Doc Ock example, I have no problem with keeping him a villain for now, given that he’s been one for decades; if Marvel manages to print a decade of books with him as a hero, we can change his category, but honestly, it’s just as likely that a Marvel writer will revert Ock to being a villain by then.

AoA Cyclops has a decent case for being neutral. But if you want him in your core, you need a team that he was actually a member of in the comics. So far as I know, the only team AoA Cyclops was ever part of was a villain team, ie, AoA Apocalypse’s regime.

As for AoA Iceman, his best known story by far is the one where he’s a hero, and from what I can tell, he only makes a Face-Heel Turn part way through a sequel to that story. The trait Wizkids gave him doesn’t show anything except that Wizkids wanted a common trait for their chase theme in that set.

Let's help you get as many people as you can on this team.

Who are your priority figures?

I'm not sure I understand the problem with the 3 you're asking about. If you draft Apocalypse, can't you draft the AoA heroes as theme?

Because this league operates as hero or villain theme teams, so even though they all share a trait and keyword along with the arguments I have given I am told that is a no.

Because of League rules, I don't have access to everyone with the Kree keyword. Rock Troll, Ymir, the Frost Giants all have the Asgard keyword, but they couldn't be on the same team - much less cored - on an Asgard team. There's several figures that share multiple keywords and the trait "Wait, that's not Superman . . ." that couldn't be cored, and some that couldn't be on the same team with the others.

I understand that this is inconvenient, but you aren't just arguing for an exception for these characters, you are arguing to end the alignment system of the Leagues. That's a fine argument to make, but the time for that argument ended weeks ago.

I chose to make the Kree villains (since they have been argued to be neutral in the past), so I had access to a figure that will be key to my strategy that is a villain, I wouldn't have had access to.

You want Cyclops and Iceman on the same team. They were never on the same team, so choose the villain team Iceman was on and core those characters, then draft Cyclops later on. Or if those 2 aren't your priorities, let's talk out who is your priority, and we'll work with you.

I'll even say that you can choose AoA heroes, or AoA villains as a core since they aren't a large group. You won't be able to mix and match, but it opens up what's available to you.

I read the wiki page on AoA it's confusing as he'll. Pretty much like DC continuity.

Cap said before, give us a list of who you'd like to draft and we'll help you put together a team.

So I went back a read my tpb and Iceman was a hero for about half the AoA. Then he fell and shattered. When he reformed he was permanently changed to a cold hearted, villain type, allied himself with Dark Beast, and nearly obliterated the x-men and x-force.

He was also referred to as Sinister Iceman and was a known criminal and terrorist.

I would submit this version of the character could be both hero and villain and should be his own progression if not already. If that means he is neutral then that's up to you, I don't know much about how we would qualify this.

Same as everyone else. started as a villain

Thanks for the timeline. This definitely puts things in perspective, and makes a good argument for neutrality.

With that being said, bluestun, you sent in a core of AoA Cyclops and AoA Iceman. You have provided no evidence that they were on the same team together. So you still need to pick a comic accurate core and send it in. We will be starting the draft on Monday. You can still submit your core after the draft begins, but we don't need to wait any longer to get it started.

We have a very diverse field, with very little overlap (if any) when it comes to theme, so get your first round picks in ASAP.

I think I am the only Marvel heroes. My entire team has been submitted

That's cause Marvel Villains(?) have more fun

bluestun will be joining you with the Eternals.

I'll get Round 1 started in a little while, and open a new thread.

New Thread

http://www.hcrealms.com/forum/showthread.php?t=600167