I take issue with saying there was an issue at Origins. Did demand exceed the amount of grinders we ran? Absolutely. But we said we'd run 16. We ran 16. What's the issue?

If the issue is that more people would have preferred to play and win and get into the constructed event, that isn't the format that was posted. Had we run "unlimited grinders" (more on that in a sec) that wold have changed Saturday's event.

It would not have been as competitive. Folks could have basically "bought their way in". Now, you can argue that since some people bought/opened/dropped that those people did buy their way in. To that, all I can say is that of the people I noticed doing that, at least 2 of them failed to get in, so one could make the argument they'd have had a better chance staying in the event they were in and maybe winning by playing.

I'm in a side conversation on this and will have more to post on this later, but I'm curious - given the fact that it is impossible to ship an infinite amount of product to GenCon, how many grinders should WK be prepared to run?

I have my official hat off for this because (a) your answer to this question is likely not going to change very much and (b) since you aren't responsible for shipping unused product back or dealing with the "lost sales that were promised on a business plan", you don't get to decide anything (any more than I do, it ain't my name on that list).

But I'm curious what your answer is.

(and the "second person" in the above remarks were not targeted specifically at squirecam, anyone can play)

MMMMMMMMMMMMM Turkey Club ....:knockedou

Any One???

REALLY...........

Yes, you said you would run 16 grinders. And you ran 16. Still, by letting people drop without playing, there were issues.

Maybe...just maybe...that player with a "bad" team could have won. In which case, the second round matchups could have changed. And one player had to play an actual match while another player did not. But by "trying" to play and win was the right thing to do, it left you unable to join another grinder, as was noted.

So just because you said 16 grinders would be played, and 16 were played, does NOT mean there were not problems or issues with the way it turned out.

In order to have the best answer, I would need to know how much product you do have. Or have access to. But without that...

1) The Gencon listing DOES tell people they can play grinders from 9-12pm. I didnt tell thim this. WK did. And people made their schedules accordingly. To change now, and tell that evening player "sorry, no product" is very unfair. They planned for Gencon based upon what you told them. It is WK responsibility to have product available.

2) I would use older product if necessary. Or buy new product. For example, You could have purchased bricks of DC75 (or SI or Web) at the Origins dealer hall for less than the $24 per booster cost, and then used such product in grinders. Sure, WK doesnt make $12 per booster that way, but everyone gets to play, and WK still makes something. You would not need to purchase the brick ahead of time, just when a new grinder fills out. And I'm pretty sure most people would rather play with Web and get in rather than have no chance at all. Thats why they came to Gencon. To play. But even if 50% of the players think that, you will have more than enough for "Web grinders".

3) IF Grinders ARE limited to 32 (which you still havent said), then I would do one of three things.

a) Have another way into the event through constructed. Likely not going to happen.

b) Let the top two to four from each pool in. That means 64-132 players. I prefer the top 3 get in (so of the final four teams, the winners are both in, and the losers square off for the third spot.) That leaves 96 players + WC + Origins + whoever else is byed in. Thats 101-110 players or so.

c) Make it so people can only play in one grinder per day. Which leaves room for evening players to get their shot.

If grinders are "unlimited" in the sense you wont run out of product, then the above isnt necessary. But this conversation is taking place in the real world.


Just so we are clear, none of this is "personal", directed at you in anger, or at WK in anger, or meant as flame bait, or anything else.

But I do think WK owes attendees what was promised. And what was promised was the opportunity to play in grinders during the evening. The current system wont do that, especially with limited product.

As a "judge" at a local venue, one of the biggest problems i usually have is people dropping out of tournaments when they don't feel they can win/don't want to play against cheese. I try to explain to them that it skews the results in that someone gets a free win AND the points. I have had winners that won on points because of this. Remember, when you drop out and give an auto win to someone it can put others who did play at a disadvantage.

I have a longer reply in the works but I am about to step into an appointment so hopefully later tonight. But just to this - it does not answer the question. How much is the right number? WK cannot bring "infinity cases". It just won't fit on the truck. So if you were in charge, how much do you bring?

Understood and reciprocated.

It's the hot chick out on the middle of the dance floor.

I would suggest enough product to run a grinder every 15 minutes (4 per hour) for each day (all day) grinders will be run.

Anyone wanna help with the math?

It's the name for the sealed events that were run at Origins and will be run at GenCon. Pods of 8 players, 2 booster sealed. The player that goes 3-0 to win advances to the next event.

If grinders start at 10AM and the last one starts at 9PM and you look at 4 per hour that's 45 grinders.


10 - 4
11 - 8
12 -12
1 - 16
2 - 20
3 - 24
4 - 28
5 - 32
6 - 36
7 - 40
8 - 44
9 - 45 (as only ONE would start during this hour)

Well, the problem is I dont have access to what WK is willing to carry and willing to do should circumstances change.

For example, I am pretty sure that bricks of product will be available for sale at Gencon. WK "makes" $120 per brick. Would WK purchase DC 75 (or web or SI or other older product) for $120 or less if it meant that more grinders would be played, even if WK doesnt make money from them. Because that decision affects how much I would bring or what options I'd choose.

WK has had 100+ players at worlds. So I'd be aming to get 100+ people in the event. I know you are not going to bring product for 100 grinders. In fact, you said double the Origins amount (basically 32).

I would bring as much product as WK would let me bring. That answer really does determine how I'd run the event (i.e. letting 2-4 members of each pool into Worlds as opposed to just the winner). And I dont have access to that info.

If its 32 grinders (total) i'd let 3 players in per pool.

If its 64 grinders (total) I'd keep track of the points and let the top 32, 2-1 "losers" in the event as well. Basically trying to get over the 100 person limit so that it "feels" like prior worlds events.

If WK is willing to "purchase" extra bricks for grinders as noted above, then I'd just bring enough for the 32-64 grinders, only let the winners in, and see how many players extra that gets us.

I would also "save" at least one, if not two grinders for 9pm Thursday. That way evening players are guaranteed a shot. If I'm wrong and no one comes thursday evening, use them friday, or as a "last chance" thing.

Basically, I'm trying to get 100 players for Worlds. You may have different expectations. But the # of grinders, and # I'd let in, is premised on 100+ players.

It's a new set, so I think people are expecting to purchase alot of cap at Gencon. So I dont think 64 grinders is unrealistic. You may have a different opinion.

Thats not going to happen. We are looking at potentially 32 grinders total. Maybe, if lucky, 64 total. But 90? I think thats way out of what Norm can bring.

Grinders starting every 15 minutes is pretty much the "unlimited" product Norm wont be able to deliver.

45 per day? Two days?

That's 90 grinders, 8 players per grinder = 720 players
720 players X 2 boosters = 1440 boosters
1440 boosters = 144 cases

That's alot. Too much.
32 X 8 = 256 X 2 = 512 boosters = 52 cases

What's the middle ground here people? Enough for 60 grinders?
That's still 96 cases.

As someone who has made his planned local Cap purchases small in expectation of making the bulk of my Cap set purchases at GenCon, I can attest to this!

I think you could the 32 grinders, but allow in the top 2 from each grinder into Saturday. That means the winner of a grinder is in for sure, while the loser of the 1-2 match still has to sweat it out while the 3-4 match is settled.

Both the loser of the 1-2 match and the winner of the 3-4 match are guaranteed two and one records, so points would come into play. As well, there may be a first round loser that wins the next two matches and factors in as well. Gives FAR more incentive to play the whole grinder, not just give up and enter a new one. You can lose a game and still make it.

Plus, knowing that points will count for someone adds incentive to have more aggressive play (typically more fun).... I think this could work and end up with 64+ in the Saturday tourney.