The 1 and 2 was referring to his use of the Overcharger not breaking away. I was simply saying the Phoenix Hawk jumps further than the Goshawk unless the Goshawk uses the Overcharger in which case there's a 33% chance it isn't even moving at all.

I've used the Summoner on several occasions where I needed range and speed over Blocking Terrain. It is paired well with units like the PHI and is able to provide long ranged ballistic support (the only one able to reach out to 14"). Throw Prescott at the controls and you have a 21" assault range with 11AV. Add IT and it becomes a very useful tool for a Faction that often has to rely on closer range tactics.

Cheers,:)

Goreb

I suppose, but I think I would rather choose Tremor Thor or the WH thor recruited if I needed long range fire support. They both have better heat and better damage, though not quite as fast. In fact, I would argue that most all ballisticly based gunslingers would outperform the pitifully inadequite JF thor.

The only redeeming quality of it I can find is that its 10" jump jets do allow you to MDFA with the faction pride, but in most cases its easier to just shoot anyway.

Yeah, didn't see that. I wouldn't use Overcharger on the Goshawk myself, which taints my thinking. ;)

Anyway, I've been thinking and I do think the Goshawk is still good (not great) and has a place in my box.

Let's break down the three mechs I'd ever use in that weight class (by point value):

PHI: Jump Jets, lots of damage.
Vixen: Evade, which is a move and DV bonus, for two bonuses.
Goshawk: Jump Jets and FAs.

All three mechs have two major plusses but different ones. The PHI is still the uber-offense mech, the Vixen is the better DV mech and the Goshawk has FAs. Since the PHI and Vixen have broadly applicable bonuses and the Goshawk is a bit more focused, they are, by definition, better.

However, I'd still keep a Goshawk around and in play if only because of the overabuse of Evade and Decoy on today's mechs. For instance, the infamous SAD combo (Seka's Pride, Akako Ryohara, Decoy) has something like a 25 DV against ranged and decoy. That's a pain and a half to break open.

In play, I wouldn't use the Goshawk in a 'blind' build. If I was going to a new venue where I didn't know any of the players or their tactics, I'd pack a PHI (or more likely a Loki). But if I'd spent a month or so getting schooled by Evade/Decoy mechs (up to and including the CJF MCIV) I'd certainly try something like...

Goshawk/Pilot
PHI/Pilot
R10/Kelswa
with something around 150 points of support. Great, now I've got a tank drop, a absolutely nasty light and the MDFA Goshawk. Why wouldn't I double up on the PHIs and toss in the CJF FP? Because the archtypical SAD build also includes.... True Grit, to kill the Merc FP (and also for the CJF FP, but less so). Not only do I keep my FAs on the Goshawk that way, but I guarantee I will not start the game losing VC2 and I open up the possibility that my opponent might.

Basically, I agree that you can't depend on MDFA. It's easy to shut down, it's a fair bit stereotyped and it's either expensive or eats a FP card. However, it's worth having around as an option. It's part and parcel of the Falcon gig, something we've gotten away from because of the uberness of the groundpounding Loki, MCIV, VIV and Vixen. But writing off MDFA altogether is like a Nova Cat player dropping his 16 inch mechs because everyone just runs inside it (okay, not that severe). Yes, basing eliminates the option. But you've forced him to base you, not shoot you, and hey, look, now that baser's in range. Isn't that nice of him to feed you VC2 and VC1? And with the plethora of anti-ranged mechs running around, the MDFA and it's anti-anti-ranged design is not too bad of a solution to a lot of those problems. The Goshawk is still a heavy enough hitter to be useful when it's not DFAing and an excellent DFA solution when the opportunity presents itself.

I'd still use Blitz though. Jade Hawks for life! :)

The Goshawk: I don't mind playing the Goshawk every once and a while. It is a durable fairly good MDFA peice. It also can do some decent damage not DFAing (not as much as some and not at as great of range.) One thing I like about it, it makes your opponent always keep the MDFA in mind. Ive always found that if I keep my opponent worried about one piece I can hurt him with others.

Now not saying I would play a whole force consisting of Goshawks. I usually play 1. Now some people say that it is easy to remove the threat of it if it is based by an infantry etc. Doesn't most units lose alot of their threat is based? I base a CJF Loki with an infantry unit, it loses the assault action, there goes an extra 5 range (6 or 7 with pilot of my choice). A couple fast basers is a real pain in the butt, for anyone.

The Goshawk is not bad but it is also not a piece that should always be used. I always say, use all units in moderation. If you do then there will always be time to get off a good MDFA or a nice Loki 10 damage pulse. Dont forget, this little unit can attack that certain little Raven from the champions pack ;).

An army I ran not too long ago:
Loki - 220
-Star Commander - 27
-Improved Targeting - 44

Goshawk - 130
-Lyons Grad - 11
-Risc Overcharger - 8

x2 Hadur Fast Support Vehicle - 50 -100

x3 Oni Battle Armor - 20 - 60 (Or another one of our great 20 pt infantry. I chose the Oni so I could shoot the Hadurs right into the midst of them w/o taking damage)
=600

The idea is to make the opponent focus on one of the two components of this army and lash out with the other. The Hadurs scatter opponent infantry if need be. The Onis base things and be a pain in the rump.

That is just my .02. Everyone plays differently. Discussion just allows people to show others their point of view. :)


The Summoner:
The Summoner would actually be a very good unit.... if it had a respectable heat dial. That is the thing the Summoner lacks. It has an ok damage value with its ballistics at one of the better ranges in ballistic warfare for CJF. It also has its secondary damage and pulse that are nothing to scoff at. It is no Loki(Hellbringer), its not going to dish out 10 damage in one turn. IT doesn't have a smooth heat dial with 4 vent rating. What it does have: Jump Jets for maneuverability, Ballistic damage that is actually somewhat respectable. A decently steady dial. Its great for those of us who love to play CJF pure. ITs heat dial make it suffer, but if you play things right you can manage it. Add a good gear (Streak Missles, Imp Targ, etc.) and you can have some fun.

In no ways is this unit going to win you a national title, but it may just win you some good battles here and there, especially if your opponents start always putting on reflective armor to counter your Loki(Hellbringer).... (yes it happens to me).

Seyla,
Razi

Hail!

I have never been able to aquire a Summoner, so I cannot comment on it's in-game deployment. I *can* say that I am familiar with this sort of heat question through my experience with House Steiner, so it is not that much of an issue for me. To me, it looks like a Heavy that can Streak and MDFA to resolve Turtle issues.

With regard to the Goshawk, I have one comment:

I used a Sakhara/Pulse equipped Goshawk to stomp all over Black Rose in the sealed tournament release of both. I MDFA'ed vehicles and Pulsed my way across the map. I was the only one whom did not get a Heavy/Assault with a matching pilot (I pulled the HK Zeus and HD pilot), so I made the best of a lighter piece. I know this Battlemech works, and does not have to be a one-trick pony.

A sealed event is a whole other ball game. No one will have an ideal army so even some poor mechs can be effective. Basers will generally be rare and few people get formations so a sealed in my experience generally ends up being a few mechs with filler infantry to try and get as close to the build cap as possible. So yes the Goshawk may be useful in such a case because if I'm the guy across the table I wasn't able to bring my 10 ATVs to make your life miserable. I've played mechs and unit combos in a Sealed that worked well enough that I would never bring to a Constructed event that I wanted even a chance of winning.

This is actually true of most of the armies I've seen lately (SAD, Jack, etc, etc, etc) and is precisely the reason why the Goshawk is still a useful anti-metagame unit. The move away from arty and towards massive mechs makes ATVs/fast basers relatively weaker, so people bring, yep, maybe a formation. If you're seeing more than 3 to 5 ATVs/basers at your location, I would suspect that's a local flavor.

In the current environment, the MDFA could well make a small scale comeback.

No one locally ever uses the ATVs, or other deep-infiltration units. They are now considered "VC1 gimmes", that the opponent can strike hard at with his superior ranged assault orders. The Shamash, a great unit in other localities, made one brief and firey appearance here, to never be used again.

I used the deep infiltration first strike army when I played Bannsons *years* ago, and everyone adapted (which was fine, as I had dropped the tactic for something else anyway).

As far as the Goshawk vs. BR statement goes, pepole here tend to flaunt a masive Assault like that without considering that every piece has a weakness. I may have used that Goshawk during a Sealed, but I would not hesitate to use that configuration again, depsite the misgivings of anyone here.

To answer another question, I believe that I have addressed the Summoner issue earlier, amisheskimoninja

I have *got* to check and see who's logged in to my computer before answering a question. This is embarrassing.

recon_raven here. Now I have to explain to another player why he's talking in the CJF Strat.....

I guess I'm just jaded by local play styles then. Here I rarely see an army with fewer than 9 or 10 infantry. Also I've played those using SAD or other RHDMs outside of local play (at National level actually) and if they're playing SAD they have a way to stop you from basing them.

If I was playing a Seka's I wouldn't worry too much about basers. Seka's got three targets with a 0 minimum on her big gun. If she can shoot you, she shoots the same with or without basers.

I could see a possible problem with, say, some Grapple and arty, but otherwise I don't think Seka's going to give too much of a rip if she's based as long as you're in range. Stopping assault orders? Definately. But still, she's likely to exterminate whatever you base her with.

no problem. consider it cross-crusader training. my fault for leaving the profile open.

-Mitchell

No one has ever really questioned the viability of Seka's Pride. Fast. Stompy. Easily primed.

I believe the arguement is based on the value of the Goshawk versus other greater-ranged pieces (which I believe is more of a meta-game issue than an actual piece issue) and the value of the Thor, which we already know you hate ;)

@pumakiller

If you are in a venue where 9-10 infantry are being played constantly, then why isn't there a move to use more Anti-Personnel and Fragmentation Missiles? From a personal point of view, I would be allllllllllllllllllllll over that.

I cannot see that persisting after two back-to-back thrashings on infantry swarms.

Whether Seka can shoot without penalty or break easily from a baser is no matter. The simple fact that it denies her an assault order is the entire point. A simple baser to move into contact with Seka means after her free spin I can take my mech (always at least a 20" run) and move from out side of her range and right behind her where she can't touch me.

Oh I do bring anti-personnel as does everyone else but we're all pretty good at dealing with AnP. No one really infantry swarms but most players will bring 3 to 5 ATVs, usually a formation or two of 3 fast Battle Armor and a formation of tougher BA. For example my standard Kurita Infantry for every build is 5 ATVs and 3 Thunderbirds, Liao 6-10 ATVs and maybe 3 Infiltrator Mk Is and Falcon at least one Sylph (half of the time 2), 3 to 6 Vet Clans and usually 3 Thunderbirds if on foot or a mix of Fenrir/Elemental/Elite Clans if I bring 3 Saxons (if I do this I usually only bring 3 Vet Clans on foot). My armies are always built to be mobile, hard hitting and adaptable (the main reason I hate the Goshawk, I don't like one dimensional mechs). Most times they will be only 2 mechs (generally 1 light, 1 heavy) one or two fast vehicles (Shamashes/Kites/Saxons) and then accompanying infantry as I stated above. I've found my play style to be quite effective not just locally but elsewhere. I travel out of town to play at another venue from time to time and thus far have only been beat by local players that come as well and know how I play. I've also placed rather well in Canadian Nationals each year I've attended (5th in 2005, 5th in 2006 and 3rd in 2007) and have played the same way every time.