Pumakiller,

I do not doubt your skill or your ability to adapt. It appears, however, that this discussion is more of an attempt to move an immovable object:

You do not like the Goshawk.

Highdancer does.

Highdancer hates the Thor.

I do not.

Seka's Pride is not a Falcon (had to throw that in). I agree that basing removes the assault. It is a universal truth (special pilot abilites aside). However, Highdancer is claiming that, although you base it with infantry, they get smoked for doing so. Therefore, although you remove the tactic, Highdancer removes yours too through the elimination of said baser(s).

Let us agree to disagree, and accept that others perceive the values of these pieces differently. As has been said ad infinitum, we all have our own ways of dealing with these matters. What we can agree upon is that there are many solutions to these issues, and what is needed to be done is this:

If there is a positive aspect/tactic to a piece, then let us share it. If there is a downside, let us share that as well. Then, let those whom choose to use that piece/tactic decide for themselves, as they are duely educated/warned.

Quiaff?

Bickering creates resentment, and amoung such fine Warriors as yourselves, we must agree that there is no place for such things.

What say you Trothkin?

I'm not trying to create resentment so if that's what you see this leading to then I'll gladly back off. I am only trying to push my point so much because of how reliant a lot of Falcon players seem to be of MDFA and I see that as a bad thing. I'm just trying to convey to others that it's an option that I would use if the opportunity presented itself but never build an army to go out and set up MDFAs. All I wanted to do was try and present some alternate ways of playing than the obvious. If anything this has at least been a good view at how different play styles are in various locations.

No fingers were pointed with regard to resentment. A general statement towards arguements that go nowhere was addressed, however.

A valid point, and I am sure that your fellow Falcons appreciate your efforts.


Agreed.

Wel seeing as everyone is all charged up about the goshawk heres an army im itching to try in our unofficial faction war at the end of the year.( please keep in mind that i dont have vixens, phi hawks or kelswas):

-Raptor + JF pilot + IT
-Goshawk + Albeni + pulse
-Oni BA *3
-R10
-Mantueffel

Considering an option of taking out the tank drop and putting in yasha and something else, hope i havent fueled the fire even further:classic:

You just might have. The Raptor and the Mantueffel do not have many fans.

Given the cost of the Mantueffel, I might suggest the substitution of a Carnivore of extra points and a better range. Additionally, the Raptor could be replaced with a Gyrfalcon (either one) at the loss of the R10. The result would be a greater range on both the tank and the Battlemech, and less likelyhood of a one-time TD tactic not working.

This of course, is only my opinion. Take that for what it is worth.

Yes the Raptor II is very openly seen as terrible for the majority of Falcon players (never met or talked to one that liked it actually) and the Manteuffel is rather lackluster as well. The first has horendous heat with no real damage potential to speak of and doesn't even have defense or evade as a saving grace and the Manteuffel's range is far to short to be effective at that high a point cost. Also Albeni Zikhali is not allowed to be recruited to Clan Jade Falcon and as such can't be put into a CJF mech.

Ok got the chance to play that this weekend like I said and it was a blast. I don't often wade in with big mechs guns blazing but I did enjoy it. We had 4 players show up for the tournament and one who told me he would be late but would be there so I gave him the bye and I was going to sit out. Anyways one of the players who had to work 2 hours after we start stopped in with a bag of some mechs hoping to maybe get a Solaris game or two in before hand but ended up tossing together a 900 point force to play me. So instead of sitting out I played him using Chikako, Hammerfall, Spot and Ingwe. As I said in an earlier post each match was random game length in turns (6 turns + D6) and each table was a different battlefield from the novels with preset terrain (non official stuff) and players would be randomly assigned to tables.

Well first round he and I played on Northwind (from A Silence in the Heavens) with cliffs blanketing one side and a pass from that side's DZ out of them into a plains with some hindering and PCs Rocky Terrain, Grasslands and Lightning Storm in effect). Also this round of the tourney was 7 turns each player. I won the roll and chose to represent the Highlanders and started on the plains side of the field. With so many basers in the Sylphs this was the first case of me being able to effectively pull of DFAs in a very long time and oddly enough after the whole Goshawk affair I went on ahead to pull off about 4 or 5 MDFAs all day with BR. The game took exactly 7 turns until I had killed everything but one mech which was salvaged at the end. Black Rose DFA'd Chikako and killed it while Refuge chipped away at Hammerfall as the Sylphs occupied the other two. Eventually (after several 13 or higher rolls, I love DF dice) the Sylphs brought down Spot and BR moved on to DFA Ingwe and damage enough for a single Sylph to salvage it. In the end I had fun but the army wasn't planned out and thrown together with on hand mechs so I wasn't particularly pleased with myself but after 3 weeks of no playing it was nice just to roll the dice.

Second round I took bye as the player who was supposed to be coming still hadn't shown up.

Third round I faced an RD army with Claw, an Anubis, Spettro with Graves, 2 Sylphs an R10 with 3 TGRs, 4 Clans and formation pride. This time we fought over Ronel (from Fortress Republic) with Horrible Day, Nightfall and Monsoon in effect. Terrain was some water near the middle with sparse hills and hindering here and there and otherwise rather open (dang was hoping to land on Skye for the Falcon vs Steiner table in a city but oh well). So again I went first and declared for Davion (vs. Republic Separatists). This round ended up being 10 turns each. First turn I moved both BR and Refuge into the water and waited to see what he would do. I was conveniently behind a hill and with my armor, the indirect modifier, ECM and AAMS I felt quite safe and didn't take any damage his turn. My turn I set up an nice assault shot against Claw but hit the horrible day (as I would go on to do 5 more times just this game to his 0). Anyways after that I moved 2 Sylphs up and ended my turn. He went on ahead to charge Refuge with Claw and hit and then moved his clans and Sylph up and Spettro into range of BR but out of my DFA range (I guess a 26 decoy on the assault to my 13 attack had him feeling good about his chances). Well having kept both of my mechs close (my plan form the beginning) I was able to DFA Claw for the full 7 and then follow up with Refuge (aka Horrible Day #2) and then tried with a Sylph (Horrible Day #3) and then the second Sylph who hit both shots (finally). So I had Claw Salvaged. Meanwhile he was bringing the Anubis around to flank. After some maneuvering I made MDFA #3 for the day to kill the R10 outright and the TGRs with it. I then did some handy Sylph Basing and followed with another DFA against the Anubis the next turn and not to my surprise failed both heat roles (I do that a lot) while he was putting the finishing blows into Refuge. The game went on for a bit but I did eventually manage to get a DFA into Spettro and then slowly finish the rest off by turn 9, 1 turn left.

All in all I had a blast today, still kind of wished I had played my usual, Vixen, Loki, infantry swarm but that's just me, lol. After a month without mech playing it, as I said, felt good just to move the pieces, do some measuring and roll some dice.

Good points about my army il remembr it for the future. I would just like to explain my army: first thing i like playing unit pure and seeing as we dont realy have tournaments or rankings win or lose doesnt realy matter, secondly i like the raptor because i face a lot of kurita and it helps with that initial armor and ive caught a few players by surprise with it! and lastly i dont have the battle force mechs. your comments realy helped though and i wil remember it when we actualy have an official tournament! Thanks again guys!

Perhaps if you display your full touman of Clan Jade Falcon, we could be of even more assistance. :)

Just wanted to put my 2 cents in regarding the Thor. I've actually used it a few times now and I was pleasantly surprised. Sure its no match for say the Loki, but they are totally different units anyway. It has an effective assault range of 20 with the star captain which is something that the Loki can't match. Furthermore its 2 targets at 14 inches and a starting base 10 attack makes this 'mech a natural sniper. I've used it with concussion ammo to shut down tank drops for quick disposal. Its got potential hunting infantry and its great in hindering terrain.

Tactically I often use it to get the first hit in, then I use my other units to finish off what the Thor hurt.

The Raptor II is surely not the greatest Mech to be taken into the CJF Touman, but it does have some uses. The 12" armor piercing can be a nice surprise, especially against some of the units with just a click or two of armor on them. As a medium with 10 attack and +2 pilots and IT available, the Raptor should get a good shot in. Many will underestimate it since it is only a "puny" 2 damage. And the movement value is huge, even without Evade or any other enhancement, making its assault range better than many other 12" range 'Mechs.

Another thing that can be done is to use it with Homing Beacon gear. The 12" is a pretty decent ballistic range for a CJF unit and the extra +2 attack will again allow it to "tag" whatever it shoots, making that shot even easier for the Loki or whatever your follow-up 'Mech is.

Yes, the heat dial is potentially dangerous ont he Raptor, but Falcons thrive on adversity. :)

Also, with such a huge movement value, a +2 move pilot might be in order with Evade gear. A 28" charge for 4 damage is pretty substantial and might be a good bet to take down a wounded enemy or as a distraction tactic or even punishment for those who underestimate the Raptor. Plus the high speed can quickly gain VC3 points and remain on the board longer than most infantry as well as basing artillery or whatnot.

So while the Raptor II is not the 'Mech unit most Falcon MechWarriors would want to pilot, it can be used to great effect, especially in a support role or a high-point environment where there are other larger threats and it can quietly go about doing its deadly work for the glory of the Falcons!

Chris

I attached my touman as you suggested, thanks a lot recon_raven!

was wondering what you all thought about this army it is one of my favorites to play but wondering how/if you would change anything

Loki/pliskin/IT 309
sylph 30
2x long toms 140
2x shamash 44
merc zahn 30
cizin 47

all pieces are CJF except for the zahn

My apologies if any of what I am about to say offends you, but that is a force that I wouldprobably never use.

Spending 45 points on a pilot is waaay to much. I use either a Falcon Star Commander for 27 or a generic Frihet Grad for 31. Additionally, I would probably use one less Long Tom and add something with a lower Minimum Range, like a Hadur (difficult to get, but worth trying). Based artillery is just a tank with no gun.

I would totally lose the Zahn/Cizen. I know it is an effective tactic in the hands of others, but I am more of a shooter than a rammer.

So, to sum up, I am probably not the one to ask. I will shut up now, and hope that a better qualified judge of your force arises to the occassion.

Ubershep,

I am not recon_raven, but I have reviewed your roster of forces and find that you have some good pieces there. Below is my assessment of the forces under your command

Mechs
Obviously, the Loki is your "bread and butter" piece as it does so many things well. The "Black Rose" Shrike is another really good unit to use. I also enjoy the Mad Cat IV, the Goshawk (although I do not swear by it as others do), Trovic Nilloba, and the Thor (even with the heat issues). Most of the rest are ok units (Raptor II, Raven, Zeus), but not great and some are just underwhelming, like the Mongoose and Ursa. You might have some success pairing the Loki with one of the smaller Mechs as a support unit.

Vehicles
The Wolf Strike tanks are pretty good and you have a transport for the "tank drop". The Skadis are ok but most of the rest is not very great and much of it is worthy only of a solhama unit (IMO). You have a couple of choices of artillery and could even pair them with the Long Tom shooting far and the SM2 covering things closer in.

Infantry
I personally like the wolf Strike Purifiers, the Elementals, the Clan Battle Armor, and the Gnomes. Don't discount the Undine, Salamander, and Fenrir either as they can and do have their place in battle. The Sylph can be used to good effect as well. almost any player can determine the proper use of gun nests and laser teams so I will not seek to insult your intelligence. Otherwise, it is your discretion what you use.

Holes to Fill
Obviously the Battle Force is one, especially the Gyrfalcons. they are pretty good and can be properly supported with other units you have in a good combined arms force. You might be able to track them down individually so you are not stuck with the sub-par Eyries and the less than superb Shrikes. Also, the AoD Hadur arty tank is a good piece to have two of for those counter-battery missions as well as making enemy Mech units easier to damage. Might also try to get hold of a Wolf Strike Vixen or two and a Vulture IV as those are two very nice units. As is the Domination Phoenix Hawk I. Those are all pretty standard units most Falcon commanders want to have at their disposal.

Final Thoughts
As with anything, it all comes down to your own style. If you can make the Goshawk work with the MDFA, then go for it. If you can manage the Thor's heat, then use it. If you want a challenge, then try out the Mongoose. Oh wait, scratch that. I cannot in good conscience allow a fellow Falcon warrior to pilot a Mech as bad as that. If you are a player who is more adept at vehicle combat and tank drops, you will want another transport or two for those big tanks as leaving them unattended on the field is asking to be slagged early.

The Falcons offer their commanders a wide array of choices and game play styles. I enjoy making it look like I want to set up the MDFA but that is really a diversion and I am gunning for the straight shot. I also use mostly Mechs and infantry with the occasional artillery piece or VTOL but very rarely will I use a big tank. A properly equipped Vixen or PHawk I is about equal in price to a transport and big tank and I like the flexibility the Mech offers, but others might choose otherwise.

I humbly submit this for your consideration and hope that you achieve much success as a member of the glorious Clan Jade Falcon!

Chris