I understand what you mean. I just think that a character should not have to rely on a card so heavily. Cards were put into place to give the game an edge, but I'm sorry, she is just the beginning of a new type of one-trick ponies. But to each his own, I guess.

Oh no reason to say sorry. It's your preference and that's fine. I was just stating that personally I didn't understand why people felt that way. But just because I don't know why doesn't mean anything other than peaking my curiosity.

But as ol'dut stated in his article...She is actually a very well spent 49 points without the cards...the card, of course, makes her much better...but without it she is still a good piece.

I do have to note...the card is what makes her actually NOT a one trick pony...with it she has Barrier AND can share a defense...without the card, then she is pretty much a basic Barrier piece.

I'm obviously missing your math equation...

NGN Superman pre HSS nerf : 10 +10 = 20 total range.
NGN Superman post HSS nerf : 10 + 5 = 15 total range.

Jeanne-Marie Beaulbier Pre HSS nerf: 12 + 6 = 18 total range.
Jeanne-Marie Beaulbier post HSS nerf: 12 + 3 = 15 total range.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it looks like Superman, with his 10 range was hurt more by the rules change, than LE JMB!

She wasn't nerfed that bad, simply because she's already sporting a 12 movement.

I'm sorry, but I'd put her on my team any day over Jessica Drew who's only 1 point less, and 20 points less effective.

Yes her range was lowered less overall than Superman's so from a purely statistical standpoint she wasn't hurt as bad...but I'm talking about gameplay wise.

I think she has become less playable after the change than Superman did...Superman had reasons to go up into close combat anyway...Jean-Marie you are wanting to keep as far a distance as possible since she only has a single click of HSS, no Super Strength, and only Toughness with a 16 defense. The fact that she now has to get three spaces closer when shooting makes her much less valuable in my opinion.

This response confuses me as well. How is issuing an alternate team ability through a card different than just outright changing a team ability like Wizkids did with MOE?

Either way it's just a free team ability. Total non-issue.

It wasn't just the HSS-range change, it was the fact that she could no longer HSS attack for free (at range) that took her out of top-20 contention. As a flier, she could TAXI, get in a attack (with natural 3 damage!), not worry about break-away, plus not worry about costing you an action, all for 66 points.

It's a non issue (a) once a player has the card in question, and (b) until the feat card granting the ATA is retired.

If I ran the circus, WK would reprint Thunderbolts, but with some text change (at least restricting it to one TA per event) and rewrite the F4 TA on the PAC to match the ATA.

It's more likely that the alt-F4 feat will be re-issued. in the next Marvel set: the ATA is the only thing that make those pieces a viable team.

Here, but I leave this question for you all about what I've been saying.

If they never printed that alternate FF TA card, would you still be running sue storm as much as she has been run with the card?

Without the ATA feat, no F4 member is really worth their points (except for possibly Alicia Masters).

As Hair10 (and others) pointed out: In the era of Disbanded and Isolation BFCs, the F4 ATA is really an after-thought. If two opponents field each of those BFCs in a 3-round round-robin event, the F4-ATA/Sue Storm player is going to have to play a game without the use of the shared 19 DV.

I have to agree. The FF card, which costs "0" points, provides an alternate Team Ability. Sue is the piece that wrings the greatest value out of the ATA and helps her team to the utmost. If the feat cost around 20 points, Sue's off the list becasue at that price tag, I don't think she's worth it at that point. But her point cost is unchanged. I personally hate figures that need ICWO, Protected, Nanobots, Armor Piercing and the like to be good as each of those adds to the point cost of a figure that already apparently isn't worth its points.

If the PAC were re-written, and the alternate FF TA became the only FF TA (so long healing!), there wouldn't be an ounce of debate here. At least I dont' think anyone will take up a position like: "Yeah, well that figure is only good because of it's TA." Hopefully the PAC will be re-written just that way. Until then the card does it's job for free and Sue's a realy beauty as a result.

Then the debate will switch to the 20 DV Antman using the Thunderbolts feat to copy the "new" F4 TA on the PAC, so we'd still be debating the "does the ATA Feat card make the piece".

And we'd still be pushing Disbanded and Isolation as the anti-F4 prescription.

I knew I was forgetting why she wasn't used as much now. The whole ranged attack with a free move, maybe taxiing someone, was a big deal. Sure other HHSers had free move TAs, but she hit a magical balance of point cost and utility. I think you can look at Jeanne-Marie as the flip side of Sue. Sue can still do the thing that makes her really useful (via the ATA). Jeanne-Marie no loonger can (due to rules changes). She's still a useful piece, but not the superstar she was. She used to actually see play without a Thunderbolts card.

(Of course if you wanted the flexibility I guess you could have packed Thunderbolts and decided to copy Brotherhood to keep the move-and-attack option if you didn't need to Mystics your Avengers.)

From that standpoint, you might as well say, "Don't play figures with powers because there's a lot of Outwit out there. Or if you must play figures with powers, make sure they've got Stealth and stay in hindering."

The fact is, the majority of players rely on team abilities when fielding a team. Whether they be folks like me who play pure theme teams 100% of the time, all the way to those who love to build the ultimate Wildcard abuse teams, to everyone in between, the bulk of players out there have the impact of their figures' team abilities in mind when they build their teams. Same thing goes for replacement values - many try to leverage the benefits of Defends/JSA, Sin Syn/Batman Enemy, etc. Many players won't use those two cards because they will hurt themselves as badly as they hurt the opposition. Since when is mutual suicide a tourney winning strategy?

Disbanded and and Isolation nerf way more than the FF ATA. Disbanded kills Power Cosmic, Batman, Ultimates, and every other TA out there. All of them. Isolation kills a pile of TA's and powers like Defend. Should we then say every figure with a TA or a power like Defend is pure junk because of those two cards? If you're not willing to say that, then the argument can't hold for Sue and Sue alone. Logic dictates.

After all, the only logical extension/solution to your (and/or hair10's) "Disbanded & Isolation" argument is to take up the following philosophy:

Never play a figure with a Team Ability or a power like Defend.

Because doing just that is the only way NOT to fall victim to those two "omnipotent" cards.

Bottom line is, I can't adopt that postion. And I'm not afraid of Disbanded and Isolation. Paranoia is not a plan.

I never hesitate to play Disbanded on my TA-pure theme teams, because my self-imposed limitation of a single TA is hurt less than a player more geared to min-max that opts for more TAs, or sinks points into Aternate TAs.

Check the "what did you play 2007" for my last team, I tried to Disband my own Defenders because I was facing a Power Cosmic Thanos, a Thunderbolts Captain Marvel, a Defenders Star Hawk and a JLA Green Lantern.

I got hit with Ordinary Day in return. :|

Tidge, you know, Thanos is a great example. So is Ganthet from DC, now that I think about it. They both rank among the best pieces in the game - I doubt many would argue that. But, without question, both need their TA's to be that darn good. Thanks to their TA's they're pretty hard to beat. Should we no longer consider them to be great due to Disbanded? I can't. They're both too good.

And, yeah, I was trying not to point out the obvious, but Ordingary Day is kind of an Ulitmate Nullifer. Which is especially fitting for the Fantastic Four .

And by the way, are you as hepped up on espresso and powdered sugar doughnuts as I am?