I don't think Nightcrawler's dial is all that bad, if it's supposed to be Kurt at the top of his game. It's the martial artist keyword that bothers me. Cosmic Spidey's a beast for sure, but I've trashed him with LG Ares more than a few times. Nightcrawler and his kung-fu grip buddies have always been more of a hassle using Ares, for me anyway.

That's not entirely true.

1. If he damages the target, he'll take Mystics. Versus the big Invulnerable tentpoles, this isn't a concern, but his targets won't always be that thick-skinned.
2. Iron Fist (or whoever) will have his hands too full beating up whoever Nighty kidnapped to waste actions healing the elf.

Cosmic Spider-Man + any ShadowPact character + Shadowpact ATA (1pt!) < 400pts and now he ignores Mystics. Anyone not playing this with him is taking a big risk, and probably making a big mistake. Especially when figures like Nightshade offer so much like Barrier, Mystics TA, and you still have another 30pts for support (Night Nurse?).

Please use a real strategy that works instead of an outdated one that used to work. Thanks.

Cheers,
Jon Id Schultz

I was trying to say I have not found a 400 point team that regularly stood a chance against CSM, but I know of several characters under NC points that would/have taken him out.

Which you are correct about. The crux of the problem in arguing Nightcrawler vs Cosmic Spidey is that Nightcrawler needs and relies on other figures. Cosmic Spiderman is certainly aided by additional figures, but he doesn't usually need them to win. Against most teams he needs no help. Whereas we know Nightcrawler does. This creates a situation where people listing Nightcrawler's potential are able to use whatever other piece(s) they want, without needing to give an actual team list. So we will hear things like "Well NC will grab him and bring him back to X who will smack him around. Then if NC gets hurt he will go to Y who will heal him. Then he'll grab a guy and Z will shoot his face off..."

I feel like Cosmic Spiderman is more "broken" (if either is) because when building a 400+pt team I have to say "Can I beat CSM?" I don't usually need to wonder whether I can beat Nightcrawler. Part of it is my play style, but none the less the fact remains: I don't need to build for NC to beat him or his team.

Cheers,
Jon Id Schultz

I'd consider adding Skrull Ms. Marvel as well, but there's a difference between what a lot these figures can do and what Nightcrawler and CSM can do.

Figs like Firelord, Ultimate Thor, Vet Superman, and teams like LAMP were all well within the existing game mechanics, but used existing powers more efficiently than anything else that was available at the time. Even Ms. Skrullvel, who was another decried figure, was well within existing game mechanics (hell, just about any pre-card figure could basically do what she did, they'd just need the Batman TA to get around the multiple powers showing in her front clicks).

The problem now is that we're getting figures that don't account for PAC powers, and don't account for the rulebook (or map rules).

We have these documents that define what we can and can do regarding the game. When figures come along and take a dump on the rulebook, then what's the point of having it? And without having proper game rules to follow by having figures supersede them, what's the point in having a game? If the makers are going to fall back on collectible aspects of the product, there's going to come a time when people are just going to decide that action figures look better and don't have a base with weird numbers and powers no one cares about.

Depending on map choice, Prime can take him out.

Well, this IS an exception-based game. ALL powers "take a dump on the rulebook", technically.

Nightcrawler is not remotely broken. Sure he's annoying to hit but that doesn't make him broken. I've never seen anyone able to do anything close to what everybody said he would do all game long. i've pulled him anda sealed and seem him pulled he was not a guaranteed win the way Bullseye and other figs are.

Spidey is crazy good for teh points and dange near impossible to stop if you didn't buid to stop him. he's as close to broken as you can get. really he makes the game easy for lazy players not really "broken".

The first time I played against Nightcrawler, Jean Grey TKd him onto a Kinetic Accelerator. The accelerator roll was a 6; Nighty ran across the map, grabbed my Martian Manhunter, ran back to his X-men friends, who proceeded to take J'onn down most of his dial. This was my opponent's first turn. FYI.

Sure, Nightcrawler is far from unbeatable. But being "broken" is not necessarily unbeatable- being "broken" is being able to have a far greater impact on the game than cost warrants. At 86 points, Nightcrawler can set up a character more than twice his cost for a quick demise at the hands of his teammates, ruin the enemy's positioning, and utterly cripple your opponent's team. You get a LOT for what you pay for.

I would have to say nightcrawler. Just based on what he can do for his points. Cosmic Spidey is a bear... But the fact that nightcrawler can bring him back to the rest your team to dish on him. In a 400 game I saw nightcrawler bring spidey within Instant death range of KC Supes armed with a meteorite and a heavy object. Supes didn't even need the second strike. Cosmic Spidey is bad but Nightcrawler can just tear apart strategies.

Illegal.

"KRYPTONIAN STRENGTH: Superman can use Super Strength. Superman can carry 2 objects at the same time if they are both standard objects; he can only use one object per attack."

Just so you know.

True. And the judge caught himself later.... But the player rolled a 6 for the object and that with 5 damage was enough to KO mister spidey....

Sure, every figure can be beaten. Now try answering the spirit of his question instead of the letter.

I'm going to go with Nightcrawler based on what you're getting for the points compared to Cosmic Spidey. I think you can put together 319 points that can run down CS and KO him, but it's harder to do with 86 against the furry blue elf. Of course, these figs don't exist in a vacuum, but that's where I think NC gets an even bigger advantage. At the moment, it's hard to get CS on a theme team below 500 points, so the one comfort you have while playing him is you'll usually have map choice.* That isn't a guarantee with NC, who fits into good X-Men teams and outstanding martial artist teams. If you think facing NC stinks, say hello to his friend Smokey Feet Cap and try not to bang your head on the table too hard.

* It has been my experience since coming back to the game that 85% of constructed teams are theme...

And what ever happened to calling it "borken"? Stupid newbies stealing our language...