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saurons "as if" is also a replacement, but is different bc it is a condition of his power. He can use PW, but only by replacing his range with 10. then its halved to 5
Quote : Originally Posted by KGB
Nope. You're incorrect for the reasons already described. PW doesn't halve anything. PW simply places a maximum and minimum distance which is equal to half of the current range. It's a minor difference that results in significant impact.
As painful as it is to come back to this thread, I just want to point out that the bolded part is, technically, incorrect. Determining the AoE for Pulse Wave does halve something. But, the "is half" portion of the effect is not part of the determination of the Character's Range Value, it is "half" of the Character Range Value after Replace/Modify has already been applied.
I fully acknowledge that this is the rule as it was intended, but I stand by my opinion that this is worded awkwardly, as it is still the only example (that I can find) where you use a "half" of a Combat Value in an effect (determining AoE), where that "half" is not a Replacement.
I will now return to my corner, curl back up in the fetal position, and continue weeping quietly.
Last edited by dairoka; 08/26/2013 at 13:32..
Quote : Originally Posted by dairoka
I'm pretty sure Dragon has the Future keyword and Probability Control.
Quote : Originally Posted by Dragon
With the amount of times you are Ninja'd I swear you must have the Past Keyword
I will now return to my corner, curl back up in the fetal position, and continue weeping quietly.
[ pats on head]There there...[ /pats on head]
I am in your corner too.
Confused.
I have been looking at this discussion and
have come out with this thought:
I am going to PW
my range is 8
draw a LoF all around me of 8
only strike those that are, from me, half the range of my range.
and if they are doughnuts, so be it!
HEROCLIX 6:30 PM,
WED. NIGHT,
THE GAMING GOAT, ST. PAUL, MN.
As painful as it is to come back to this thread, I just want to point out that the bolded part is, technically, incorrect. Determining the AoE for Pulse Wave does halve something. But, the "is half" portion of the effect is not part of the determination of the Character's Range Value, it is "half" of the Character Range Value after Replace/Modify has already been applied.
I fully acknowledge that this is the rule as it was intended, but I stand by my opinion that this is worded awkwardly, as it is still the only example (that I can find) where you use a "half" of a Combat Value in an effect (determining AoE), where that "half" is not a Replacement.
I will now return to my corner, curl back up in the fetal position, and continue weeping quietly.
It is not a replacement because once you determine what half of the range value is, you stop using the character's range value completely. Pulse Wave does not use the combat value of range. It uses an Area of Effect that coincidentally is determined by looking at the character's range value.
It is not a replacement because once you determine what half of the range value is, you stop using the character's range value completely. Pulse Wave does not use the combat value of range. It uses an Area of Effect that coincidentally is determined by looking at the character's range value.
It's not a replacement value because we are told so. I'm still maintaining that there is nothing in the specific wording of Pulse Wave that clearly defines that the "is half" should not be treated like ever other instance of "halving" a Combat Vaule. I can find no other examples of a CV being half, halved, is half, or any other combination of words in the English language that equate to 1/2ing a Value, where that half/ving isn't a Replacement. To me, this is counterintuitive and poorly worded. I am told that that is the intent, and that is why I will be playing it that way. But I get it. Really. I understand. I can see how they mean it to be played with the words they used, but I still think they were poorly chosen words.
If you are interested in reading further on my opinion on this, please reference the Faux Post below.
Quote : Originally Posted by dairoka
Click on the VIEW POST arrow for post 53
Quote : Originally Posted by dairoka
I'm pretty sure Dragon has the Future keyword and Probability Control.
Quote : Originally Posted by Dragon
With the amount of times you are Ninja'd I swear you must have the Past Keyword
It's not a replacement value because we are told so. I'm still maintaining that there is nothing in the specific wording of Pulse Wave that clearly defines that the "is half" should not be treated like ever other instance of "halving" a Combat Vaule. I can find no other examples of a CV being half, halved, is half, or any other combination of words in the English language that equate to 1/2ing a Value, where that half/ving isn't a Replacement. To me, this is counterintuitive and poorly worded. I am told that that is the intent, and that is why I will be playing it that way. But I get it. Really. I understand. I can see how they mean it to be played with the words they used, but I still think they were poorly chosen words.
If you are interested in reading further on my opinion on this, please reference the Faux Post below.
This exact conversation took place with rpgambit (orange) very recently on this thread, starting around post 18. A good quote is this one:
Quote : Originally Posted by rpgambit
We are working on many different areas to increase clarity, and if this turns out to be a major point of misunderstanding, it will be addressed as well.
So just make sure you're being heard by the oranges when you say the wording isn't clear.
Quote : Originally Posted by Typhon
what members contribute through donations is actually costing us money
It's not a replacement value because we are told so. I'm still maintaining that there is nothing in the specific wording of Pulse Wave that clearly defines that the "is half" should not be treated like ever other instance of "halving" a Combat Vaule. I can find no other examples of a CV being half, halved, is half, or any other combination of words in the English language that equate to 1/2ing a Value, where that half/ving isn't a Replacement. To me, this is counterintuitive and poorly worded. I am told that that is the intent, and that is why I will be playing it that way. But I get it. Really. I understand. I can see how they mean it to be played with the words they used, but I still think they were poorly chosen words.
If you are interested in reading further on my opinion on this, please reference the Faux Post below.
Pulse Wave is not using range. How can we apply a replacement to a combat value we are not using?
Pulse Wave is not using range. How can we apply a replacement to a combat value we are not using?
Pulse Wave absolutely uses a character's range. It uses the Range Value to determine the Area of Effect is. How do we know that using half of a Combat Value to determine an effect isn't a Replacement Value? Some can tell by looking. Some need an Orange for clarification. (I'm in category two.)
Continuing to say that Range is not used by Pulse Wave is incorrect. It's just not used like every other use of Range, but it is still used. Otherwise, how can we tell what the Area of Effect is?
Quote : Originally Posted by dairoka
I'm pretty sure Dragon has the Future keyword and Probability Control.
Quote : Originally Posted by Dragon
With the amount of times you are Ninja'd I swear you must have the Past Keyword
Pulse Wave absolutely uses a character's range. It uses the Range Value to determine the Area of Effect is. How do we know that using half of a Combat Value to determine an effect isn't a Replacement Value? Some can tell by looking. Some need an Orange for clarification. (I'm in category two.)
Continuing to say that Range is not used by Pulse Wave is incorrect. It's just not used like every other use of Range, but it is still used. Otherwise, how can we tell what the Area of Effect is?
The area of effect uses the character's range, Pulse Wave does not. The two are independent. You can tell its not a replacement because it isn't being used.
If I order a pink toilet from Home Depot, Home Depot then orders the toilet from Kohler. Once Kohler gets the toilet to Home Depot, I pick it up. I didn't use Kohler to get my toilet, I used Home Depot. It matters not how Home Depot got my pink toilet. I asked them for one and they got me one.
Pulse Wave is asking for an area of effect. How that area of effect is determined doesn't change what Pulse Wave does.
R = R/2 is not using "=" as equals it is using it in the computer terminology which means "gets"
To be read...
R gets R/2
That is accurately the definition of a replacement value. Because the value of "R" changes.
When you say A = R/2 it is not a replacement value because R does not change. Where A is Area Effect.
That is the big difference.
Notice that Damage Dealt is derived from Damage Value yet Damage Dealt can be replaced after Damage Value has been modified.
For example, if you modify your Damage Value by +1 and encounter my Imperv that later reduces Damage Dealt to 0, I will still be dealt 0 Damage as I do not apply the +1 Damage VALUE modifier to Damage DEALT.
Its the exact same reasoning. The modifier that is applied to Damage Value first is not applied to Damage Dealt later just as the modifier to Range is applied first and not later when calculating Area of Effect.
Last edited by IceHot; 09/03/2013 at 18:14..
"A Jester unemployed is nobody's fool." - The Court Jester "And so he says, I don't like the cut of your jib, and I go, I says it's the only jib I got, baby!
Pulse Wave tells you to use the character's range to determine the area of effect. However, from that point on you are no longer doing ANYTHING with the character's range. You are using area of effect to figure out who is going to get hit.
Quote : Originally Posted by rowdyoctopus
Pulse Wave is not using range. How can we apply a replacement to a combat value we are not using?
I agree with Rowdyoctopus. Rowdyoctopus, however, is mistaken.
Quote : Originally Posted by dairoka
I'm pretty sure Dragon has the Future keyword and Probability Control.
Quote : Originally Posted by Dragon
With the amount of times you are Ninja'd I swear you must have the Past Keyword
I agree with Rowdyoctopus. Rowdyoctopus, however, is mistaken.
I did not say Pulse Wave is using the range value. I said the Pulse Wave wording instructs you to use the range value for determining the area of effect. Pulse Wave itself is not using range, its using the area of effect.
I did not say Pulse Wave is using the range value. I said the Pulse Wave wording instructs you to use the range value for determining the area of effect. Pulse Wave itself is not using range, its using the area of effect.
Exactly. When I say Pulse Wave uses Range, I mean it in that broad, Dictionary kinda way, not that specific, HeroClix kinda way. Pulse Wave, via Area of Effect, uses a Characters Range to determine that AoE, even if it's only using half of it.
Or, since these threads seem to breed analogies, look at it like a carton of milk.
Pulse Wave's Area of Effect tells you to drink half the carton.
You may not be drinking all of the milk, but you are still drinking milk.
Now replace carton with Range, and drink/ing with use/using, and we'll be on the same page.
And milk goes well with donuts.
Sprinkles.
Quote : Originally Posted by dairoka
I'm pretty sure Dragon has the Future keyword and Probability Control.
Quote : Originally Posted by Dragon
With the amount of times you are Ninja'd I swear you must have the Past Keyword
Exactly. When I say Pulse Wave uses Range, I mean it in that broad, Dictionary kinda way, not that specific, HeroClix kinda way. Pulse Wave, via Area of Effect, uses a Characters Range to determine that AoE, even if it's only using half of it.
Or, since these threads seem to breed analogies, look at it like a carton of milk.
Pulse Wave's Area of Effect tells you to drink half the carton.
You may not be drinking all of the milk, but you are still drinking milk.
Now replace carton with Range, and drink/ing with use/using, and we'll be on the same page.
And milk goes well with donuts.
Sprinkles.
Your analogy is off. Pulse Wave tells you to get a carton of milk equal to half of the carton you already have and drink that.