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as TheFreak put it, even on swarm teams, it rarely gets good use after turn 1.
the design of the ta is useful on swarm teams, yes. the avengers are not a team that should be designed around swarm team strategy, not occasionally but as the expected norm. this would have been a great ta for shield. it woefully underperformed for avengers for 15 years. I recognize that you have enjoyed the experience. however, you should recognize that is far from normative.
Quote : Originally Posted by Darkheart
First up I never said it was the "best", but one of the best.
semantics
Quote : Originally Posted by Darkheart
As to the TA being a "waste" on dials over 100 points, well that is just silly. It goes back to how your team is built and how you use it, not which dials actually have the TA. It is important to make sure that whenever a clix with the TA is making a move action that you declare it as a free one. It doesn't matter if it's a 300 pt Iron Man or Jarvis that utilizes it so long as you maximize your free actions every turn. On every one of my teams I have 1-2 figs that you would say having it was a "waste" that get at least 2 free moves every game.
it isn't a free move. it was a move that didn't count against your action pool. there was no declaring involved.
unless your team of avengers had an average point cost substantially less than 100 pts, and employed no taxis, you weren't going to beat the action pool anyway. and I don't just mean some less than 100, it has to be significantly less for the ta to trigger. which means your forgoing any weighty representations of earth's mightiest heroes. so no, it's not silly, it's math.
...I mean for turn one I could take 5 actions so long as I had at least 2 with the Avengers AT and have my hitter in position to attack (with Indom/willpower) with passive support like perplex, PC and outwit also ready. My average opponent would not be equally ready for another turn at least, giving me a significant advantage.
This is assuming that your opponent has more than three characters, or if there are, are totally devoid of Carry, or don't plan on only being able to take three actions a turn in a 300 point game....
Quote : Originally Posted by Darkheart
I have built 500 point Avengers swarm teams with 10+ clix and given 100% of them move or power actions for at least the first 2 turns of the game. You understand that? You take 5 actions, I take 10, you take 5 more, I take another 10.
I would LOVE to have an opponent double-token their entire team on turn two. I would not consider that bad thing.
Round 1 actions. Me 5, you 10.
Round 2 actions. Me 5, you 10.
Round 3 actions. Me 5, you none.
I can make that work for me.
Personally, I have found occasions where the old Avengers TA has been extremely useful (looking at you, Spider-Man TA bystander Mary-Jane Watson!), but overall, I think there will be more instances where I can benefit from the new one. Your mileage may vary.
I can't believe someone is talking up the old Avengers TA. Ranking the old rule TAs:
1. Mystics
2. PC/Q
3. MoE in Theory
4. Outsiders
5. Batman
6. Superman/Equivalents
7. SHIELD
8. Police/Hydra
CUTOFF - Anything below this is only useful for specific builds
9. Avengers/JLA/BoM
10. Defenders/JSA
11. MoE in practice
12. SS/BE
13. X-Men/TT
Wildcards are unranked. Did I miss anything? Injustice League has no use so not on here.
I can't believe someone is talking up the old Avengers TA. Ranking the old rule TAs:
1. Mystics
2. PC/Q
3. MoE in Theory
4. Outsiders
5. Batman
6. Superman/Equivalents
7. SHIELD
8. Police/Hydra
CUTOFF - Anything below this is only useful for specific builds
9. Avengers/JLA/BoM
10. Defenders/JSA
11. MoE in practice
12. SS/BE
13. X-Men/TT
Wildcards are unranked. Did I miss anything? Injustice League has no use so not on here.
MoE in practice? That is an amazing TA. I agree with 10, 12, and 13 because they require another user, but MoE? Did you mean Superman Enemy?
Historically Avengers have it so much better than BLA & BoM because they have so many more clix in the economy range, especially in the last 2 years. I 'm not exaggerating when i say i can build a 500 pt Avengers team with 14-15 clix and take 11 actions for the first two turns each with the TA, indom/willpower and leadership. Granted, that is built with the goal of maximizing the old TA. But I love seeing the look on the other guy's face when you move that much of your force that early is priceless.
And I also concede that I love tweaking my Avengers teams more than any others. However ask yourself this? If the WK playtesters and rules jockeys didn't see OP bloat with the preponderance of >50 pt. dials and those ATs combining why did they see the need to tweak them?
I loved the old Avengers team ability...but only with the recent sets. That free move couple with ADW Common Caps leadership kept swarm teams rocking for days!
I can't believe someone is talking up the old Avengers TA. Ranking the old rule TAs:
1. Mystics
2. PC/Q
3. MoE in Theory
4. Outsiders
5. Batman
6. Superman/Equivalents
7. SHIELD
8. Police/Hydra
CUTOFF - Anything below this is only useful for specific builds
9. Avengers/JLA/BoM
10. Defenders/JSA
11. MoE in practice
12. SS/BE
13. X-Men/TT
Wildcards are unranked. Did I miss anything? Injustice League has no use so not on here.
The conspicuous absence of fantastic four ta hurts me to the core
MoE in practice? That is an amazing TA. I agree with 10, 12, and 13 because they require another user, but MoE? Did you mean Superman Enemy?
I have used it quite effectively via wildcard. But very few figures who have really benefit from it and all too often you are giving up an expensive high defense, damage reducing click to deal 2 damage....
Darkheart, you are the first person I have ever seen say that the Avengers/JLA/Brotherhood TA belongs up there. Sure it has had its uses... but they were few and far between.
I'm another fan who misses the original Avengers TA, for exactly the reasons provided. The ability to move (without costing an action) meant that a swarm of Avengers could easily surround and frustrate opponents. Folks may not remember, but there was a time when the best TAXIs in the game were low-cost Avengers (E-19 Wasp). The low cost Avengers also have long had very niche figures that work well in swarms: Mockingbird, Black Panther, Moon Knight, et al.
In the days of feats: Contingency Plan, Warbound, Inspiring Command and Coordination were all feats that worked well for many avenger Swarms.