Okay, here's my return attack rule proposal. I've written it to only apply to mechs but it could be easily tweaked. I'd love suggestions to make it simpler. I stuck in the +2 defense for the attacker so there's still an incentive to spend an order taking the first shot.

RETURN ATTACK

Due to the pilot's elevated vantage point and a mech's superior reaction time, mechs are able to respond to threats more quickly than other units. A mech may choose to make a ranged or close combat attack against a single opposing unit, during an opponent's turn, when an opposing player targets the mech with any type of ranged combat, close combat, or special attack. If the enemy attack utilizes a formation, then any one unit participating in the formation may be the target of the return attack.

All normal limitations of range, firing arc, and base contact will apply to the return fire attack. No combat formations can be used by the player making a return attack. Apply heat and/or tokens as if the mech had received a combat order.

The return attack occurs simultaneously with any type of opposing attack, but after the free spin if one is allowed. Any and all damage to either unit is held until after all attacks are resolved. Special case: if a special attack occurs outside the mech's front arc, and the free spin is only allowed after the special attack is resolved, then a return attack is not allowed.

Any unit being targeted by a return attack increases its defense by +2.

A mech may make multiple return fire attacks during an opponent's turn - once for each opposing attack order that targets the mech. A single order may allow multiple mechs to perform return fire - if so, all return fire attacks are simultaneous and must be declared before any dice are rolled.

RETURN ATTACK EXAMPLES:

Rob gives a ranged combat order to his Mad Cat III, targeting Jason's Arbalest and Cougar mechs. Jason elects to perform ranged combat return attacks against the Mad Cat III with both mechs, since the Mad Cat III is within range and inside the front arc for both mechs. The Mad Cat III's defense is increased by +2 since it is being targeted by a return attack. Rob and Jason roll their dice simultaneously - Rob hits both mechs, Jason's Arbalest misses, but Jason's Cougar hits with the help of its improved targeting. All mechs take their assigned damage and heat, and the order is complete.

Rob then gives a move order to a nearby Tamerlane Strike Sled, ordering it to ram Jason's Arbalest. He positions it in base contact with the Arbalest's rear arc, and also in base contact with the Cougar. Since the 'Sled began its move order outside both mechs' rear arcs, Jason takes a free spin with both of his mechs, and declares a close combat return attack with the Arbalest. (Since the Cougar was not targeted by this attack it cannot make a return attack after the free spin). Jason rolls a critical hit! Rob's ram attack also hits, so both units take their damage (the 'Sled is destroyed) and the Arbalest takes a click of heat.

Rob presses the attack by ordering a Shandra scout vehicle to ram the Cougar. Jason made a tactical mistake - after his free spin during the last order, the Shandra is now in his mech's rear arc! The Shandra misses, so Jason's Cougar takes a free spin but he is not eligible to perform a return attack.

On Jason's turn, he orders his Arbalest to make a ranged combat attack against Rob's Mad Cat III and his other mech - a MiningMech MOD. Both are in range and eligible to perform return attacks - Rob announces that both will do so, and he declares that neither mech is using its single-use equipment.

Jason's damaged Arbalest misses. Rob rolls for the Mad Cat III first and rolls a critical hit! He knows this damage will be enough to destroy the Arbalest, but since he already announced his intention to fire the MiningMech MOD, he must go through with the attack. The MiningMech MOD rolls a critical miss - what bad luck! All mechs take their damage and heat, and the game continues.

I am not somebody who has a major problem with charge, but I accept the fact that a grand majority of MW players would like it to be weakened so I will give my opinion. I think the best solution is that for VEHICLES charge should remain unchanged. However any charge against an opposing ‘Mech should be for 3 damage modified by Agility and Brawling only. I think this change would actually help more ‘Mechs than it hurts which is another benefit since even if we get all the rule changes I think ‘Mechs are underpowered.

Hey I think that all the Non- Spirit cats should stop your crying, gee it is only one piece that can do that, If you all knew any better you would figure out how to beat him instead of crying about him!! As is the Cats don't have an ordinance carrior and we are not crying about that!!!! Learn how to beat a tough Mech, Don't cry to Wizkids about it!!!!

Dave

P.S. Go Spirit Cats

Easy jus make the charge range of a mech lower insted of doubling the speed jus make it 1and a half of its speed

Limiting charge to 1.5x walk does not fix Arnis. He can still charge at 18. Limiting charge to walk is too limiting for certain large mechs.

Instead let charge be 2x walk, but CAP it at 12" for all mechs.

Also, on successful hit, charge should do more damage to the attacker than it does. This would discourage the use of charging.

Here Here!!!! My thoughts exactly.

Listen, Arnis is not that good, Hold him down with Fashi's and let the arty fly, or base with 3 BR Infiltrator MKII's and roll a 13 (with IT) :)

ok you people need to understand something.

charge is not the problem, arnis is! if you look at the back of the LI box, u will see wat arnis was supposed to be like 12 attack, but only 6 movement. THAT would have been fair, but we cant change the rules now


What we can do is change the stats on arnis just a bit

what i propose, is that his agility, be always ONE TIME USE

this will make it easy for infantry to peck at that 20 defence, for 2 click of close combat, not just one. ALso that will allow mechs to charge, and do 2 clicks of damage

ive play tested it, and it is very good

my 2 cents

No.....I'm pretty sure that Charge is the problem, not Arnis......

See, Mordrid and I are on two very different sides of this debate, yet we agree. I mentioned earlier that banning Arnis or changing charge until it's a last ditch tactic will hurt the game. I really DON'T want to defend charge, but I will defend it as much as I do artillery stacking. Mordrid uses his equivalent of my term "chargeaholic" in his "hippies who don't know how..." the same way I respond when someone tells me that my army is cheesy because I don't think they planned well enough to deal with it. It seems that the current stance is that most of the strong strategies of the game are being toned down until they're easier for a newbie to deal with. My opinion is that eventually the game will be decided by ONLY a series of dice rolls with strategy and unit selection being irrelevant. I can and will adapt to any rules changes, but I think that this current trend of nerfing each strong strategy as they appear will cause the game to stagnate. I applaud Mordrid in that even though we're talking about hampering his chosen favorite tactic, he's willing to compromise and adapt.

I believe charge should be changed so that the charging unit takes almost as much damage as the target. If you crash a car into another car both car become heavily damaged. and if you crash a car into a truck (light mech into a heavy mech) the car becomes totaled and the truck is not nearly as badily damaged.

It;s good to see some people with good sense..

Charge is not an issue. No big problem and if nerfed, the game will go down fast into Tank Drop mode, which is really bad.,

VTOLs pretty much make charge useless. (when did you guys manage to charge a VTOL? I did once in a major mistake from my opponent)...

I do tend to agree that Armos should count toward reducing the charge damage, and in fact it should add to the damage the charging mech would take.. but even that is not necessary. I can see WK adding a +1 to the defense due to all the people complaining.. it will make charge riskier, and tank drop slightly more powerful, but still manageable.. The one thing that would completly unbalance the game would be the range reduction.. that would completly take balance out of the game...

My 2 cents.

Sense when can you charge a VTOL?

If the vtol is NOE. They can do that on occasion.

Putting those VTOL's at NOE is a great way to avoid that pesky AA unit if you don't have to worry about being charged/rammed. If someone decides to base it then it's a 1 or higher to break no biggie. That was off topic sorry.