im a big fan of the HL PDS, an not just cos im a loyalist! my recent build incorporated one an cos it was accompanied by two RotS Centaur BAs the look of disbelief on my oppos face was a joy when he hit one for 21 :devious: :devious:

plus dropping those 3" pogs (i have a template to size for effect, thx GW) always is fun. :grin: :grin:

i have found that there seems to be a lot of my local playas who use the Centaur an TTL leaving out the more traditional arty. IMHO a big mistake cos the shorter ranges allows the oppo to hang out in their DZ till you move up. i always look to include 2 arty as the effectiveness in tourney play cannot be overlooked. :cool:

the use of Art. or the mix of your army depends heavenly on your playing style and what you expect to play.

If you choose to use Art. I advise the following use 2 of them as to hound a Mech, 1 Art. has little chance to hit an Mech unless you are lucky to push on a hot moment.

Think through the logic before selecting a Art.

Example
If I use 2 A4s, if I do then then Imust accept that a Paladin will outrange and I am forced to either position them centrally or opposite a longer ranged Art. Or risk to be out ranged by Long tom or Paladin.

It is because of this logic that most people choose an A4 and a Paladin, for accuracy and range.

There are quiete some possibilities in the mix of your Art. And you can find good reasons to use most of them. I myself like Art. but if it is a to strong/primary component of your army I doubt it's ability to kill something within 50 minutes.

Just some thoughts on the subject.
regards
Elite130

Thanks Xtatika. Missed that. Ho hum. Still, would you rely on it? The number of times I roll a 1 on a break away die these days!! :)

@rearly -

Yes one artillery piece is less useful than two in and of itself. But if one artillery piece is there waiting to be used and you have enough in your force to get away with not using it until such time as circumstances are right then it can be useful.

For instance in the tank drop force you don't really care you only have one. You have more than enough to spend orders on until such time as it gets opportunity to do something. This is of course most effective when the artillery concerned is cheap (i.e. not a Paladin I guess). Thinking about it, a transported Mortar Squad, TTL or Centaur would fulfill this latter role better than more expensive artillery.

Okay stats time...

How many move orders or assault orders do you think a 'Mech can make before you are bogged down in Beach?

The expected number is ... 6! (not too surprising I guess as it is a 1 in 6 probability)

The cumulative probability you get bogged down is:
1 move: 16.7%
2 moves: 30.6%
3 moves: 42.1%
4 moves: 51.8%
5 moves: 59.8%
6 moves: 66.5%
7 moves: 72.1%
8 moves: 76.7%
9 moves: 80.6%
10 moves: 83.8%
11 moves: 86.5%
12 moves: 88.8%
13 moves: 90.7%
14 moves: 92.2%
15 moves: 93.5%
etc etc since I can't see you needing the probs beyond that, actually.

Not pretty if you are a 'Mech player because Beach is only thwarted by Urban and Jungle (and, of course, Perfect Day). Just what you need. Something that pins your most expensive unit in place where a Tigger can jump on it. Worse, it could get obliterated with artillery because let's face it, who wouldn't drop as many tokens on an immobile 'Mech as they possibly can?

Beach doesn't strike me as a incredibly useful PC off hand. It doesn't affect the Jade Hawks (popular) or Black Rose (who seems to be popular) because of their JJs. Sure, it could slow them down once you smack them out of their JJ clicks, but at that point, chances are you're winning anyway. The timing of the roll makes it difficult to pog since pogs are laid before you find out whether or not the mech is pinned down.

It does have potential for JJ mechs and arty forces in as much as every terrain piece becomes water (good for mech puddle hopping and anti-ATV terrain placement) and there is a 1 in 6 chance of getting a free pog hit on a mech every turn (for arty).

Hmm. Goshawk/Black Rose/SSw A4s and a Beach. :)

Yami (Canadian Champion fielded this one) and the other Shiros.
Duke.
Chikako.
Persuader.
Thunder Foxes.
Blades.
Rokurokubi.
Hellstars.
Arnis Drummond (Oz Nationals Champ fielded this one)
I could (but won't go on) listing commonly-featured units it affects but you get my drift by now.

You're talking like everyone who fields a 'Mech either fields a Black Rose or a Jade Hawk.

Kotch, your analysis of the infiltrate/move patern of the BR sprint is not correct.

If I goes first, I can infiltrate straight away in the midle of the board the full 25 inches at cruse level. That leaves me with 13" drop at cruse or 11" drop at noe. Simply put I can unload a unit that can hit anywhere in my opponent dz.

If I go second, my main problem is to being shot down before I can engage my opponent. As I infiltrate second, I can place my sprint out of range, but still threaten your dz (11 or 13" move and unloading a tgr is about 24 or 26" fire range).

Speaking of statisics, can you calculate the probability of ripping orders from my opponent if I play 600 with Esperanza+pilot and 300 points of Liao Elite units. I want to know if trying to play such an army is worth the work.

Regards, Xtatika

Ah. I misread the card. I thought it was saying a 'Mech may not be moved again ever. But it's only saying it may not be moved for that turn.

That'll teach me to read it too quickly. :)

I meant if you fail to break with the Sprint. Then you either have to go Cruise to break the lock or else stay where you are and keep your passenger or stay where you are and disembark the passenger.

All have risks and dangers.

I know full well how far it can move and drop and how far it can infiltrate.



The probabilities break down thusly (assuming your opponent doesn't have command):

4 orders: 69.4%
3 orders: 27.8%
2 orders: 2.8%

You'll have 4 orders 83.3% of the time and 5 16.7% of the time.

Obviously all is rounded to %+1dp.

@Elite

Fine. You don't want me in your thread? I'll leave. I came over here simply because Kotch did, no other reason, and although your opinion is worse than useless most of the time Kotch actually provokes thought on a regular basis. I hope that one day you can get your thread exactly the way you want it, with you and Trev taking turns agreeing with each other and everyone else humbly asking you self-appointed gods of MW for your esteemed opinion on this or that issue.

@Kotch

I clearly reviewed the specific army in question because I went step-by-step through the support. Elite's post didn't explicitly state that he was making this comment about a big fatty in the context of that particular army (it implied the opposite, if anything). Even in that context I don't agree with him; none of that infantry tends to get ahead of Black Rose, so how will you isolate it and kill it? It's probably your best bet but it's by no means a sure thing, certainly something that should be explored or elaborated upon more than Elite's typically dismissive comment on the matter. I don't really understand your point; infantry doesn't kill stuff quickly but it doesn't die quickly either, and he has a JF TTL so he can indeed push stuff around. Don't bother replying to me for my sake because I'm not welcome in Trev130's thread and won't be returning after this post, but perhaps someone out there is similarly desirous of elaboration.

Also, Sprints DO have Evade once they infiltrate.

I don't think too much of Beach. It has some potential as an anti-Yami (or just generally anti-blocking anti-non-JJ-'Mech) PC but Dust Storm does that particular job much better (in 95% of cases) and also cancels Caustic Atmosphere. If you're running an MDFA army and you don't have a second Dust Storm canceler you're taking a big risk. That ends up being the question you have to ask with all new PCs: Is the advantage it gives my army better than the advantage granted by bringing Dust Storm? If my army fears Dust Storm, is the increased risk of facing it worth the advantage conferred by a PC other than Storm? Of course if you're bringing more than 2 PCs, Beach looks considerably more attractive, but by the same token so does Urban.

You don't know if the 'Mech will be immobile when you set up your MDFA or drop your templates. The probability that the 'Mech will be held in place on the subsequent turn is always just 1 in 6. If Beach did actually let you know that the 'Mech would be immobile when you place the templates it would be much better.

@rearly & Janos

Yeah, I can respect the power of the HL Paladin. It's the only (post-retirement) unit with Point Defense I think much of at all. You may never know where the templates will land, but neither does your opponent, and if you need to you can reliably hit a single target by bracketing it. It has Heavy armor to help in arty duels of all stripes and a Veteran rank. I really am at a loss for why I've never built an army containing it... just a blind spot for point defense, really (I hate defense, it's never saved me because my opps reliably roll 14s with their faction dice). It's a serious threat to my army because it can reliably put a 3" radius template somewhere where it'll hit many of my units. On the other hand, if your opponent doesn't have much of a backfield it's still helpful for its point defense.

Anyway, Elite The Great, enjoy your circlej- um, thread.

just for referance beach doesnt affect chikako either

Wow. Now that's a PC.

I'm still not convinced it's a bad card to play, the more I think on it. You'd want to play heavy arty and/or lots of JJ mechs. Puddle splash and hope for some 6s to bog down your opponent for some arty hits.

Why not?


All non-shallow water terrain features become shallow water terrain features instead. When a ’Mech without Jump Jets is given a move or assault order, roll one six-sided die. On a result of 6, the unit cannot be moved, though units with the ('Mech) speed mode may be rotated to a new facing. If the unit was given an assault order, it may still make a ranged or close combat attack, if possible.


Chikako is a 'Mech. He doesn't have jump jets. Therefore he is affected.

It says "'Mech" and not "Speed Mode 'Mech" if that's what you are referring to.

I have been proven wrong then sorry. I thought that that was the case because it had the symbol for speed mode mech

nope im with you on this, IMHO the mode is specifically referring to biped not quad 'Mechs exactly because of the illustration. the additional surface area given to quads makes them a little harder to get stuck. maybe a fair comparison between 2-wheel an 4-wheel drive?? :classic: :p