'Groan'... But I'm under the impression they actually may want to sell these sets. Its just so ... wrong! I mean those are excellent sculpts, they're just overpriced. They did change the twins (and yes I'm aware of some of the reasons why).

In the end, You're probably right. I really wanted to buy this set, but have it do more than collect dust. Lets face it, how many JF players are NOT going to buy this set due to its current condition(such as yourself)? Doesn't that bother Wizkids in the least?

The Twins are a) a nerf and b) a clarification and c) card text. All of which are quite different from what needs to happen for the Army Pack.

Oh, it will. Right in time for them to make the RotS Army Pack into a freaking abomination of power creep.

Remember, there was almost no chance of this turning out well. Either the Army Builder was going to be overpowered or underpowered. It was the first of a new thing and was going to have teething pains. Unfortunately, it was put out to compensate for losing FAs and turned out to be a piece of drek Falcon's Prey level abomination. So not only are the FAs gone, but the 'bandaid' is gangrenous.

Joy... I was afraid that since this was the 1st pack it would have problems with it. I'm just puzzeled as to why a good middle ground could't be found. To me it didn't seem to be that difficult a thing to do to make balanced units(many of the newer nons in recent sets seem fine), or to simply post corrections for the points costs. (BTW, what did you think of the revised points costs I posted; just curious).

Eyries: Never going to be totally fixed by changing point costs; only the Mongoose has the level of offensive anemia that the Eyries pack. I suppose it's not bad, but still nowhere near the Jag or PHI.

Gyrs: Still too expensive, but the Gyrs can be fixed by changing the point costs. They have the stats of a medium mech (if you're willing to accept that the Stalking Spider and Thunder Fox can do more damage) but the price should be in the 130 range (i.e. more than an Uziel, around a T-Fox, less than a SS).

Shrike: actually almost impossible to fix. Too slow, too little range and too low of a DV. The Shrikes actually seem similar to the old PH IIC (Hellfire/Fu) but cost substantially more. IMHO, no mech over 200 that caps at 22 DV can ever be successful; there are too many 11 and 12 attack mechs running around to say nothing of 11 and 12 attack mechs with IT. The Shrike can't hit first reliably (too slow, too little range) and can't expect to avoid taking the first hit itself (no Decoy gear and lousy DV). If it's successful, it'll have to be with ECM gear, adding even more price to the equation and crippling the balance. On the other hand, since it already has myriad offensive SEs, defensive gear isn't the worst option. Unlike Cloudmoon, I'm not as enamoured of the armor; nice, but too easily bypassed, especially since the DV sucks and it's not strictly necessary to formation drop to crack it open.

Well, I guess thats that then 'sigh'. Thanks for your input. Hopefully Vanguard will treat JF better. As for the builders set, its still just too bad to see the actual faction mechs get such a poor showing.

It's funny I was thinking about buying 2 of them, then I saw the stats. At which point I was still considering 2 because the pilots are about the only saving grace but not by much. After doing some reading and thinking I am not sure if I'll even buy one let alone buy 2. Such disapointing pieces, I'm with everyone else though I was hoping for decent mechs nothing over powered but just costimizable good mechs. Sadly they'll look at this and go "Ok we can fix it" and make the next AB better but a lot of good that will do us at that point.

Well, in all fairness, bear in mind I am a cynical sourpuss at heart, so it's possible I'm missing something. I could see the 16' Gyrfalcon being good if only for a complete change of pace, but I'm not spending (in my case) $30+ for it. Especially since the thing makes me spit acid and I'd just as soon not take them off WizKids' hands.

Maybe they'll be fixed. I wouldn't put money on it. Hell, I wouldn't put a Mountain Dew on them being fixed; it would run counter to the entire run of MW. Sucks, but there you go. At this point, I'm really very curious to see Vanguard and the stuff in it. Frankly, most of the sets have had one or two decent enough CJF pieces in them. If the AB pack ruins that, well, that'll be more of a shame than anything in the pack itself.

Well, stranger things have happened. So who knows. I got an pretty clear 'no'. From Kevin in regards to the changing of the dials, but who knows, perhaps they will make some kind of exception, and in my mind its not a big deal and its within their power to do so. So heres hoping.

You're right about the Shrikes... When I first saw them, I was like: Why are they so frickin' expensive for such disappointing Attack and Defense values... Why would I ever put them on the field instead of the Phoenix Hawks, Black Rose, Goshawks or Loki's?

I myself never uses Eyries in tournaments, and with these new Eyries that's not much going to change... They have too little life and too little defense to be short-range attackers, which hurts me much, as the sculpt of the Mechs are really nice...

im going to use them because they are better than using even more overpriced, uncustomisable mechs. Sure, you're not going to win a tournament with them, but at least you can use the pretty sculpts in a fashion that won't make people look at you like a heathern for fielding uncustomisable mechs.

and besides, if you don't want yours, I'll gladly trade you some of my painted stuff for them so I dont have to get a set off Ebay in a years time. :p

I used to think I was in trouble when I'd managed to toss my UPCs from the first eight boosters I bought, but after having seen the stats, my mind was changed.

For what they can do, these things are a bit on the more expensive side. The Eyries are on the high end for class-L mechs, and only the green one has decent range. Still, it has to get in close to do more than ping for two, and for the price I pay for it, I can get a ROTS Hellion that has comparable damage, speed, AV, and Evade. It's just that, for something that has to get in close, they're expensive and not too well defended. A Jag can do a similar job for about 20 points cheaper.

As for the Gyrs, how these manage to be more expensive than the Stalking Spiders for what they can do is just beyond me. Admittedly, they have TSEMP in clicks where you can use it without making a roll afterwards, but the damage profiles are just abhorrent. A stalkd spider with a basic pilot costs about as much and has a similar AV, far better DV, and more firepower.

Also, for the 160ish or so, you can pull out a Jade Hawk that will outstrip these things in terms of all but range and vent. After a pilot, you have the choice between a low-damage sniper and a moderately-defended MDFA monster. Or, for maybe an infantry figure more, these things are in Scourge range.

When it comes to the Shrikes, they have better stability because they're assaults, but it's not necessarily a huge thing. The lesser is slow, short-ranged, and poorly defended. Firepower's not worth a ton if you're smacked around before you get close enough to use it. The second shrike at least has a workable range and mad damage on that range value, but still suffers from range and defense issues.

Now, I could pay $30 for these, or I could use these mechs as alternatives for the weight classes:

Class L: Phoenix Hawk I. Aside from some late-dial durability, this thing is cheaper and more damaging than the Eyries at range. If I want a close-ranged damage machine, I'll probably go for a Jag and deal with the lack of JJs in exchange for paying 20-30 less.

Class M: Ok, admittedly we don't have a native long-range medium mech beyond the Raptor II, and its heat dial is pretty sad. Mediums as a whole, outside of stalking spiders, aren't that great. In the Gyr defense, they do bring something new to the JF table outside of the older Gyrs. Still, the Goshawk is a machine capable of an MDFA, and has a superior move and defense for 30 points less right off the bat. Or, for that price, we can be well on our way to tricking out a Jade Hawk for MDFA work.
I see the Gyrs as a sort of failed experiment. Were they cheaper, I would be fine with them.

The Shrikes: Admittedly, Clan Jade Falcon's roster of assaults is fairly small; it consists of the 3 Shrikes and the Zeus. The -VP-A compares decently to the Zeus; it's a little more expensive but has (slightly) better range; the Zeus outguns it with ballistic and outruns and out-defends it, and the heat dial is still very solid for something that can't insta-cool. The -V1-A Shrike compares ok-ish to Malvina in that it can deal with infantry, but it lacks her defense, attack, MDFA, and ability to make CQC dicey against it. It's also more expensive. What I can say is that with a generic pilot the two AB Shrikes are better than the FP Shrikes, but that's not really a big distinction.

Overall, I'm saving myself $30. I'm in college, and I think that I'll get more joy out of $30 on other things than these.

Okay, the Goshawk is an excellent Jade Falcon 'Mech. Mainly because it has the Merciless faction ability. But how useful is the Goshawk if Dust Storm or Caverns is in effect? At that point, the Goshawk loses the Merciless ability, and has damage equal or lesser than what the Gyrfalcons have. In Caverns, the Goshawk also has a lesser range.

The question is, do the Gyrfalcons have 31-55 more points worth of features compared to the Goshawk? Even when the Goshawk doesn't have Merciless available?

And that's the key. A lot of people feel it doesn't. I can see that argument - the Gyrfalcons have lower speed and lower defense, after all.

However, if we're willing to look for the positive instead of only looking for the negative, we can at least see a few things that might be worthwhile:
- The Gyrfalcons have longer ranges. This doesn't matter in a Dust Storm, but in Caverns, that's a bit difference.
- The Gyrfalcons have more SE. The utility of this greatly depends on the style of the player, and the forces arranged against them.
- The Gyrfalcons have more stable stats.
- The Gyrfalcons have TSM.
- The Gyrfalcons have a 4 vent vs the 3 vent of the Goshawk.

There are similar comparisons I could make for the Jaguar and the Zeus vs the Eyries and Shrikes.

I'm coming around to thinking the JF Battleforce units are a bit overcosted, but I'm still not convinced they are useless in the right situation. They won't ever be top-level tournament pieces, but neither are 95+% of the units in the game.

Why? It's not part of one of the sets that get faction abilities. So, unless there it pays for a Merciless Faction Pride Card of some sort, it doesn't get the ability.

Um, the Goshawk is from Firepower. The GYRFALCONS are from Falcon's Prey and the Battleforce set.

Freeptop is comparing these Gyrfalcons to the old Goshawk.

Heres the problem for me: I just like the Sculpts way too much....
As much as I(and it seems just about every other JF player) think the stats could have been designed better, I still think these mechs are among my favorite sculpts.
Sure the PHI is better stat wise. But man its nowhere as cool looking.

So here I am TRYING to see the positives of this set.

1. The Medium warrior pilot: First non pilot card that I'm aware of that gives a +1/+2/+1. Thats pretty amazing. For the Goshawk lovers, thats a 12 speed, 11 attack, 21 defense 'mech. Not too shabby. Even for the Raptor II which is a poor design, with this card you can pump up its base speed to 14! How many mediums can do that?

2. The mechs are designed to take abuse. Most can take 5 clicks and still be barely phased. Most lights are crippled with that much abuse. Not the Eyries. The Gyr Falcons are also pretty similar in this regard. These 'mechs seem to be designed to take a solid hit and hit right back.

3. The Gyr Falcon's: They're not built for firepower but for range and durability. You can't plug em once to put them out of commission. Besides, how many 'mechs do you know can take that kind of damage and also can have a potential 20-22 inch assault range with the right pilot? I don't think its a fair comparision between the Gyrs and Goshawk. They have 2 totally different battlefield functions(Close quarter, DFA combat as opposed to battlefield sniper).
These Gyrs are better than the originals...they may lack the firepower but on a whole they're cheaper, tougher and faster. These mechs (and the medium warrior pilot) may be the main(read only) reason I buy this set. Yes, I have heard how mechs like the Stalking Spider are so superior, but Quads are a cheaper chassis on a whole, and the SSpiders aren't just better than the Gyrs but most mechs.
(if they ever make a cheap gear card that increases ballasitic damage by 1 point for mediums, then these mechs will be far deadlier).

4. Pushability. As much as they're firepower is below standard(except for the Shrikes), these mechs are pushable, with their vent ratings of 4. That means they can potentially pump out more damage in a couple of turns than comparable mechs, who have better one turn punch.

As for the Shrikes. I'm starting to wonder if they're ALL outclassed, BR included. I mean the PHI does the same damage at a better Assault range, and then there is the Loki, which totally outguns it. Still, the ones in this set are fairly comparable for the price to the Zeus's. They may lack the speed and defense and faction abilties(not that the Zeus could use em), but they have a better long ranged punch(the Zeus's long ranged gun only does 3 clicks as opposed to the Shrike's 5), they have armor, are better in close combat and are harder to pin down than the Zeus due to their jump jets.
These aren't top of the line mechs by any imagination, but these mechs can be used in conjuction with fast basers in 'hammer and anvil' tactics. Besides for those JF players who don't have a Shrike, heres your chance.

I still hoping that there will be some positive alteration by Wizkids for this set, but in the meantime, I'm trying my best to like this set(I mean really trying!).