altan,

The flip-side to that is that the figures you mentioned (i.e. the healers) probably aren't going to be stuck just healing the figures they were originally thrown in to support... they can heal other figures in the army too.

Yes, the support starts off tied to certain figures, but it's not like those are the only figures that will ever reap the benefits of the support...

The emerald warder is much better than it's been advertised on this thread so far.

42up, Balduvian, BattleMaster:

I agree with you that the warder is not the best EL unique, but it's in the top 3, right behind the EMG in playability. The majority of complaints about the warder were related to it not working well with its faction, and not being able to defend troll artillerists. It does happen to work very well with the the mounteds of the elemental league: bound - breakaway - get healed, charge - breakway - get healed, etc. You can even play the unicorn mounteds when you have a healer as good as the warder.

The complaint about not being able to take advantage of the warder's healing and offense at the same time is mind boggling to me. Field him with some mounteds and keep him a couple of inches behind them. He can blast whatever bases or threatens them when they breakaway, and he's right there to heal when needed. By virtue of his offensive stats and his 10 inch range you can both threaten and support with him at the same time.

Someone mentioned him sitting in hindering terrain all game and not being able to do anything. The wraith has stealth too... does anyone play their wraith this way? His stealth simply makes it easier to threaten with him. Just lay down two hedgerows for him to snipe behind. The woodland snipers work great with him this way. Yes, you must move them all within 10 inches, but when there is hindering terrain between you and your target, this is not a problem.

I believe balduvian twice made remarks about his limited damage and offense. This is simply wrong. He has two clicks each of 11, 10 and 9 for his attack, and still does 3 damage after taking 5 himself. For 68 points, there is no other figure as durable as the warder in both healing and offense.

The comparison to the paladin prince is no contest. The warder's range makes him much more effective as a healer and an attacker. The only thing stat-wise that the prince has on him is defense and his initial attack, while the warder actually has a more durable attack. The warder is also 5 points cheaper.

I agree the 10 inch range is very par for attacking, but it's very good for magic healing. There is only one fig cheaper than the warder with a 10 inch healing range - the corrupted priest. There are only two figures with a 12 inch healing range, the revenant priest who costs 93 and the summoner at 76, who does not start with the ability. The warder's stealth helps out his range when attacking.

As for the issue of a healer being able to protect himself, it's a good thing. He kills yellow shades, imps and goblin volunteers in one shot. His 11 attack/4 damage slots will either keep most non-unique figs from basing him or turn them into an expensive sacrifice.

Again, I'm not saying the warder is the best unique in EL, but it's much better than it's been given credit for. Outside the context of this thread, the warder is even more playable. He works with with anything that can get away to be healed, figs with flight, charge or bound.

I believe balduvian twice made remarks about his limited damage and offense. This is simply wrong. He has two clicks each of 11, 10 and 9 for his attack, and still does 3 damage after taking 5 himself.

It isn't wrong if you look at other similarly costed uniques that don't have Magic Healing. The Wraith costs 7 points less, and after taking 5 clicks of damage, it's still got 8 attack/4 damage, which is certainly comparable to the Warder. The Centaur Champion is still doing 9 attack/3 damage at that level too, and it's also cheaper. (Yes, I know the Champ doesn't have a 10" attack, but then again the Warder doesn't have charge and can't move 12" at once when it starts out either.)

For 68 points, there is no other figure as durable as the warder in both healing and offense.

That's the problem... I don't WANT a figure that's durable in both healing and offense. If I can get one that's durable in one, and one that's durable in the other, for about the same total point cost, I'd rather do that.

Which healer would you use thats durable in both areas. and has a reasonable pt cost. And if you use the egm you are just stuck mainly healing the figs you attached her to because most likely they are low defense figures that need 19 defense

Why wouldnt you want a figure that can do both. Why would you rather have a figure that could only do one or the other for the same pt cost. That makes little sense if any.

Which healer would you use thats durable in both areas.

Again, I don't want a healer that's good in both areas.

I want a healer that's good at healing and an attacker that's good at attacking. Simply because of the points formula, I should be able to find more efficient figures for the same cost because I'm not investing points in high printed damage and an attack SA that can't possibly benefit from high printed damage on the same figure.

How about a combination of a Krugg Seer and a ***Amotep Gunner? That's 69 pts, which is almost exactly the same cost as the Warder...

Why wouldnt you want a figure that can do both. Why would you rather have a figure that could only do one or the other for the same pt cost.

Again, you have misread me.

I don't want a figure that can only do one or the other for the same point cost. I want two figures, one that heals and one that attacks, that combined are the same point cost. Such as my previous example.

dual-role figs are not as good as single role b/c of the action system.

having 2 figs for the same cost that perform seperate actions that the 1 fig can do will allow you to attack and heal in the same turn rather than every other turn.

That's basically what I was trying to say, at least part of it anyway.

And I can already anticipate what the response will be: "But you won't always have to heal!"

And that's right, you don't always have to heal. The problem with having your attacker and healer in the same figure is that you will actually have to anticipate in advance whether or not you'll have to heal. "Hmm, he's got two figures that can shoot that Troll next turn, but he needs 8s... do I go ahead and attack with the Warder and hope he misses, or do I wait if I need to save it from getting slammed?"

With a combination of two figures like the Krugg Seer and ***Gunner, you don't have to make that decision. You can attack with the Gunner, and then if you need to heal the troll next turn, you've got the Krugg there ready to step in.

Yes but having 2 figures to move instead if 1 and no formations to use them in makes for more movement actions then until you get to the spot you want you will have less actions to attack or heal with.

Careful army building can help you make up those actions elsewhere. And unless everything in the army moves 12", chances are there will be little attacking or healing until the fourth or fifth turn.

Now you can see what my stubborn streak was like before I learned to temper it with reason! Give up Tallyn! You both have valid arguments, and they are probably based on your individual playing styles. So your best bet is to play it in a couple of tournaments and then share the results here. As of now, it's still speculation since practically no one has put one into play in a competitive environment. So put him in the army switch or the single faction tourney this weekend. Not that it'll matter. It'll have to go through me to win anyway unless I have to sit out the Army Switch to avoid a bye, but then fate will decide who will represent your Warder.

What do you mean by careful army building

Ok, "careful army building" is pretty clear. I can see I'll just have to spank your warder and your argumentative little butt tonight. Have your army and the battlefield ready, young Tallyn!

careful army building is when you make sure that your army is action efficient.

It is really not that hard. If you look on the battle boards, most people have a variety of figs but they can still move in 2 turns.

Here is an example-
*grave robber
*detonating zombie
*detonating zombie

*technomancer
*technomancer
Scarabet

*war hatchet krugg
**shaman

a variety of figs, but it can still move together in a double turn

Careful army building = Not just throwing together a bunch of the best figures, but using figures with Quickness and formations in such a way that two loners don't prevent the entire army from being able to be moved in two turns. In a 300 pt game, the difference between taking two actions to move a Krugg Seer and a ***Amotep Gunner and taking one action to move a Warder doesn't matter much if it only takes 4 actions to move everything else in the army.

Unfortunately, I couldn't test the combo in a tournament even if I wanted to. I own neither a Krugg Seer nor a ***Gunner.