The Amotep Incincerator doesn't retire for another minute Lawn_Gnome!

:D

Actually, a case has been made that a lot of relics are incredibly powerful in Conquest (of course, they are relics that are very powerful in 2.0, for the most part). Fortunately, Conquest tournaments now allow house rules to deal with potential problems (as long as proper notice is given of these house rules).

1) Book of Lightning - attack from anywhere on the battlefield to anywhere else on the battlefield?
2) Necromantic Bonestaff - bring back a figure anywhere on the battlefield?
3) Mask of Mysteries - jump across the battlefield (limited only by placement of terrain).
4) Oracular Codex - (there are many, many options for using this to a huge advantage).

I guess its time for me to chim in on this. I played MW back when the BR lego and Ms. Hegg ruled the tourney scene and also durring pog warrior and Tank Drop. Durring that time I won with these armies and after playing them in tournies I noticed their weaknesses and then was one of the few players to repeatedly win against them. I am an advocate of waiting till the 2nd or 3rd week of June to actually see what impact all of these armies will have on the tournies. Let people play with these first then look at what happens. I believe that counter armies will show up and eventually the scene will even out. But really we should wait for the general populace to experiment with this then judge. Let us deal in truths not in hypotheticals.

-saber

..........................................

(that's the sound that this dead horse, which has been beaten for a long time, makes)

Hey, you want to screw up the guy who uses the Spirit Armor army?

Just for a lark, load down lower-costed LEs or Uniques with big fat relics and point-hose the Spirit Armor-er.

Heck, eat some Mexican food and befoul the play area with the stench of the righteous if this whole silly issue makes you that zealous.

Perhaps you'll work this wave of emotion out over the forums and eventually realize that this is just another bump in a game that's constantly being developed to be cooler for you.

I don't think WizKids made this (mistake?) to make all the players out there say, "Man, this company hates it players. We shouldn't play this game or buy their product any more."

They probably just skipped playtesting for this specific relic or perhaps they've created some kind of puzzle within the game that you haven't figured out yet. Who knows?

DBlizzard, yes some Relics are way too powerful in Conquest:

K-Bow (especially because there is no capturing)
Spirit Armor (makes every big piece unplayable)

Mask of Mysteries and BoL are not nearly as bad as those two, to me at least...the MoM you can only teleport figures in base with you, so only a portion of your army, and BoL you have to hit...

This discussion should probably be moved to the Conquest forums. However, a reasonable house rule for Conquest 2.0 is to allow capturing. The capturing works very differently, gamewise, in 2.0 than Unlimited.

I can't believe I read the whole thing!

After reading it all that's all I have to say. The other thing is directed at the guy talking about chess about 4 pages ago, and he's probably not reading this boring stinkin' thread anymore.

Let me turn the conversation on its ear, thusly:

It is the very fact that there are things being put into play that cause this level of argument that bugs me about MK. It also makes me YEARN for a way to play online, so we can end this once and for all.

I implore you all, if you play with or against an army like this, please post the results here and we can dissect them, because the mat is the only place this will be resolved.

Bri

If Mage Knight was a well balanced game, where game play strategy ruled, there would not be all these complaints.

Isn't it amazing that these complaints sound soooo much like the complaints we heard a year ago before 2.0 was even mentioned.

I do not like a game of rock paper scissors.

I do not like a game that relies on army building rather than army playing.

Despite the cool factor in DR which I think is high, I am les than excited about playing the game. I will give it a try though.

so dfazman when are we going to play online ??????????????

I just have to figure out the cavalry bases. Are you willing??

Dfaz! Army talked me into buying one of those stinking mats, so you had darn well better play! I'm not getting shafted out of 25 bucks I could have used to buy a Spirit Armor. ;) LMAO

Forgive the slight off-topic addition to this thread(hahaha, like anyone would notice at this point! ;) )

Anyway, if you want to see how incredible the Mask of Mysteries can be in Conquest, go to the battle formations forum(not for conquest, just normal mk).

I posted an army for conquest that 100% takes advantage of the MoM and then posted the a battle report of how my games went...it definitely is another relic that needs to be...tweaked a little.

I don't find it amazing that the complaints sound so much alike considering that the people doing most of the complaining are the same. It is obvious they want the game changed to please them, and until it is nothing is going to satisfy them.
The majority of the remaining complaints are focused on Conquest. It should be obvious that format has been abandoned until the regular MK can be reorganized. These are not a direct indicator of whether the base rules and game play are balanced. Look at how the Conquest rules differed from the Rebellion and Unlimited rules and you will see the balance of the two scales has always been different.

Any strategy game with personally crafted forces is always going to have a rock paper scissors quality to it. There is no way to change that without eliminating the majority of units and individual army building.
However the strategy of MK remains with how you play your army and not just how you build army, If you are unable to play well because of your particular army build then the fault lies in the armies you, both in the armies you are building which are so easily neutralized, and your tactics which are unable to adapt.

For the most part I agree with you, most complaints (K-bow, MC/C, MC+Rage Hammer+Salamander, BoL, etc.) come from people who just like to complain. As most of these strategies can be beat with any army played well (no need for a specific counter army). However, some of us who never complained about a broken combo or figure before (I was even ok with Varatrix+Blade of Dominance before the Errata) still think that spirit armor has problems.

I think that if they made spirit armor so that it only triggered if you are killed by your opponent (ie, no cloak of the martyr, no drowning yourself) then it would be fine. Personally, like Braden, it is the only combo that I am not fully OK with. Everything else can be delt with by a compotent general, however what can be done against them first turn killing any figure they want (granted, at the cost of a figure, but still not very nice) anywhere on the field. I personally dont think that the intent of spirit armor was to allow you to kill off your opponents best fig, I think that the bonuses were supposed to be what you were playing it for, and you were supposed to have to pick a figure to avoid killing so that you didnt lose your own figure and your bonuses from the relic.

I never complained about Am Drac (though I always planned on fighting it, or an OST), I thought Corpheus was a joke, I don't like K-bow much, and it was the only Relic prior to Spirit Armor that I lobbied for a change. Now I am lobbying for changes to K-Bow and Spirit Armor simply becuase it is what I think is best for the game. I want what's best for the game because I don't want newbies scared away, I don't vets frustrated - in short, because I love to play MK, and I wan as many viable army types as possible.

As a competitive player, I'm not even complaining about losing a game here and there basically because of the Domains played (by now, everyone should have at least once or twice run into a Domain that nerfed their army in some way and helped cause a loss) - the reason I don't complain about it is that now there are lots of armies and figures and combos you can viably play and win with, more so than ever before. My feeling and experience (with K-bow at least so far) is that these 2 relics limit viable armies, and with a change that won't make them useless at all (remove the suicide options) we can be back to a wider range of playable armies. For me it's that simple...