I think i posted something about this in the 'what makes a pro player'. The game has mathematically superior decks. Those decks get found and shared. Its a normal part of the process and illustrates the true organic nature of card games, no matter how mathematically sound they seem, in that they are created by people and are art forms, not equations.

Art forms. I like that. As an artist, I consider this whole experience to be one giant sculpture... using my actual life as clay. I guess that's pretty far away from the Tier One mentality, although I need to understand cutthroat metagaming as part of the piece.

Silly boy, you can't cut throats with a stick!

I must admit that I like the whole 'treating whatever you do as an art form' mentality. There is a certain zen quality to building a deck inasmuch as individual cards are not as important as the whole. I love the point at which the tweaking begins in deck design, until a perfect little snowflake has been created. The arguements about cards 58-60 always seem to be the ones that take the longest on my team :)

There is something about the pursuit of perfection that I love. At the next PC I'll show you the results of what happened when I decided to try to reach perfection at various forms of shuffling and cutting :)

All the best

TimsWheelbarrow

Aye, there's the rub... shuffling and cutting rituals. Personally, I handle my cards until they speak to me through my fingertips. Superstition becomes skill when practiced with conviction.

There is no denying that the Internet has a huge impact on this game. David Leader and I were the first two to play the common enemy deck in a Tournament and we both made T8 at the very first PCQ. This deck was what we had worked on since the release of the game. However the deck has evolved and for the better I think. By the deck becoming public knowledge many other people were able to play the deck and discover changes to make the deck better. I do pay attention to the decks on the net but my team puts the hours in that we do so that we can find the best deck in a format. This gives us the best chance to win. Winning is the goal of our team. We do this to make money but in doing that we have fun. Many of the points that have been brought up in the thread are valid. It is easier for a player to become better when they are using a tuned deck. Not everyone is a deck creator. I know that is not my strongest suit. However once I have a concept I am able to see what works and tweak it to make it better and I feel that I am a pretty decent player. Our last deck we played in Indy and that I played in CC Atlanta was a very difficult deck to pic up and just play. It requires many hours of testing to realize what the right decisions are for each situation. I think that the Internet makes the environment more competitive and just makes the game stronger as more people can play competitively. Therefore I welcome it. Keep testing ans slinging those cards.

-Russ

Ok

As far as the stick and the uzi go how about this, what if the stick is slightly bent. then its a boomerang and you can pop the mofo in the head b4 he sees you so much for that uzi.

and as far as original deck, i have a deck right now that hasnt been neted that i kno of, but i kno some players out there as good as me have already thought of it and are working on it.

but when this "stick" is discovered it will start to fire acorns at ur arse.

See you just don't get it.

A STICK is A STICK.

A BOOMERANG is A BOOMERANG.

The last thing sounds like a semi-automatic OAK TREE.

Well, what do you think sticks really are? I mean, just because we haven't found the triggers, do you think that doesn't mean the squirrels have them? Yeah...they're just feigning ignorance, waiting for the right time to strike. You're never safe with those semi-automatic oak trees disguised as sticks out there.

The real question: is this post the result of insanity or complex metaphors?

since everyone keeps using all of these sticks and uzi references i thought i might change pace for a bit:

ok, while i love to hate a great cheese like everyone else, soem decks are just not the thing you wanna see 3/4 of the day at a pcq or any other event.

and that usually depends on the quality of the cheese ( is it name brand? is it on some kind of chips? does it just leave a bad taste in your mouth? maybe you just don't have the right kind of dip to make it a little more palatable today? :))

while i have to admit i respect a player a bit more for playing something of their own creation as opposed to copying the deck they found on line that won the texas state championships, i understand that there are people that want to play competitively that simply lack the ability to build their own 'winning ' deck.

they simply don't understand how to choose cards that function well together.

this is a mental acumen thing.

experience will usually aid the better player.

luck of the draw tries to balance that field.

by copying another players deck, players of lower experience are attempting to 'cheat fate' by letting some one else do the work for them.

this is the way of the world in many things.
most technological advances seem to come from 'piggy-backing' from another's work.

i know first hand the frustration of going to an event and seeing the same old thing over and over again. ( in colma, at the pcq i played against the ff in 5 out of 6 games!)

when that happens, it allows me to size up most of my opponents play level in just a few moments ( if you are simply playing the ' in- deck' i can usually assume that your play skill is a little lower than mine, and i can guage how well my tech will do against you by turn 2. usually)

this is not a slight against anyone, but maybe the environment would be better if more of the capable players used more variety.

but then, who 'wants ' to lose?

tricky situation right?

i mean, i played gk in 2 different pcq's using a straightforward gk build, and placed top 8 in 1 and top 10 in the other.

i played my super team up deck in san diego and got whipped up on by a lot of people, though mostly due to a poor draw ( how many times can you get a bad draw in one day before you have to accept that your deck just wasn't ready for this? :) )

i encourage you noobs to copy other people's decks, just to learn from, but not to play them in events.

'get your own bag ;) '

I think you are highly underestimating the ability of certain players play skill based on their ability to build a deck.

Tim could probably explain it in a better way than I can.

Their are designers/tweakers/players. Some people are varying degrees of each.

Designers usually come up with a version of a deck idea and their initial build sucks.

Then a tweaker comes along and polishes the deck into a finished product.

The player is the one winning with the initial sucky deck that has been tweaked.


That's a very bare-bones version.

Ahhhh a net-deck discussion. Like someone said earlier, there is no way around this, net-decks are inevitable. So what can a player do? Either conform in an attempt to win, or play your deck for fun whether its at a venue or at a PCQ.

What I truly dislike is the net deck player who makes fun of anyone not playing a net deck. Those are the players that give your "rippers" a bad name. Or, for example the guy who breaks out a net deck/army when it has been agreed to play for fun. That happened at a MechWarrior game recently. The gaming group had agreed to play with at least one construction mech in their army. So every single one of us built fun, goofy, even ridiculous armies to have fun. In walks the net-army guy and he lays down his Maxim/Shmitt net army with one single piece changed out. These are the players that tarnish the tier-one mentality.

On a final note, there is another route you can take. Build a hate-deck. When Ravager Affinity was running rampant in Type 2 magic, I decided to build a hate deck. My deck lost to EVERY other match up but totally dominated Ravager. There was a series of tournaments in the area that decided who would get a spot in a final grand tournament. Every year, players from other venues would only show up to our venue to play for spots. So this year I came prepared. Needless to say only ONE Ravager deck won in 10 weeks.

Just my two cents,

CC

PS
I really need some help tweaking a Mono-Doom Deck to take to a PCQ. I would truly appreciate any contributions to the discussion. I know there is an All Things Doom thread but I really don't want to have the thread die. Please help a Vs. newb out.

Been away couldn't make my pro net deck argument yet, job hunting takes up much time.

Wolverine.Bub that was the funniest thing I read in a while.

Who hasn't had fun playing with sticks? Swinging them at your brothers head with reckless abandon, getting hit in the groin in retaliation, Come to think of it that wasn't fun, well it was but god playing with sticks can hurt sometimes.

But you can't play with uzi's with your friends, well you can but you'll need new friends often.

point sticks are great for casual play, and in my opinion just more plain fun, but they can hurt enough to be used competitvely as well.

Profparm Nobody Knows....

IMO, net decking isn't a crime at all. who doesn't want a slice of the pie when everbody says it tastes heavenly?

it is in our instincts to strive to be as successful as we can. it is also in our insticts to acquire more knowledge about things we truly appreciate. this is how and why net decking happens. as one craves to learn more about the game he plays, he'll soon encounter a deck list that wins consistently. now as a person who wants to improve and win, would it be wrong to copy the deck and actually win some games? i think not. and besides, that is why the decks are posted in the net in the first place. for someone else to apreciate the masterpiece that one has concocted.

to the net decker haters out there - i have 2 simple questions. let's say that you have been wanting to build a certain type of deck but somehow you just can't get the right build. and then one day, a player posts his winning deck... and surprise, surprise, it's just like the deck you thought about! but you notice that the cards he used in the deck are much different from yours - they have so much usefulness and synergy in the deck.

1) will you stick with what doesn't work to avoid being a net decker despite knowing that the build you just saw is close to perfect?

or

2) being a net decker hater, will you abandon all that you have been working for since someone else beat you to the punch?

improving on another deck idea from the net is technically still net decking since you didn't come up with the original deck idea. using a different strategy for the deck copied from the net is technically still net decking. and because of our affinity for knowledge, im pretty sure that everybody has done this at one point in time...

so if net decking were a crime as most say, then i guess each and everyone of us is guilty.

IMO, the reason why most people hate net deckers is that they can't stand how one can climb the ladder with relative ease while they are busting their ballz out just to get one step up... my message to you guys - some people will take the easy way, some prefer to work for what they earn. that's life. learn to live with it.

just my two cents ;)

As long as Deck Lists are posted online there will always be net deckers. Honestly it doesn't really bother me at all. I know i like to look at the top decks and see how the metagame is going, or what new unique ideas have come out.

What really bothers me though is when i meet people that have no creative thought whatsoever. I hate it when i play someone and i ask them, "why do you use this?" or "Dont you prefer that?" and their response is "Oh i dont know, i'm just using Robs deck"

I mean its one thing to get ideas from a deck, its even ok to copy the deck, but its something totally else when you copy a deck and you dont even know why you copied it other then its good.