So basically we should complain everytime we face a deck that attacks, stalls, or wins by alternate win conditions.

LET'S GET VALHALLA'S EINJINAHARS!

Hmmm, Chris....

So.... a format in which carbon copy decklists, comprised of amazing originality such as "betrayal" and the super techy "mojoverse", make up 95% of the metagame, are equal to a format where fourty three different deck types were present?

Even if I grant you the point that many of these 47 deck types ran similar cards, like emoe, sttg, and mr. m, that's hardly comparable to an entire field of bastions and garths where the sole differences were whether or not they have mojoverse, and if they drew boliver on turn 1.

Were you watching the same top tables I was? There was a kree press deck near the top almost all day, as well as a brother reservist deck. These were only a drop in the diversity bucket that was 10k Colombus. Although day two was comprised of mostly faces, it wasn't because they ran enemy's, or tech'd in Mr. Myxptlk. They had success because the majority of people didn't see them coming, and as a result noone packed absodom or the like.

On another similar note, you once mentioned that the majority of people who champion enemy do so because they can't build decks well enough not to need them. You went on to say that "The people who cry that they need enemy in their piece of crap team up decks should be shot". I'm sure I'm taking this a bit out of context, but how well would L.I.S. do without enemy? Care to turn the gun around?

A deck isn't crap as a result of being less feasible without the addition of enemy. If that were the case, all decks could fall under that label, with the simple addition of the words "That deck would be nothing if it weren't for ---roy harper, bastion, die for darkseid. wild ride etc. etc.--"

I could go on, but no matter how much I try, I can't be Walter Kovacs.

First of all I like the concept of the deck that this thread was supposed to be about. Kudos

Second...

*(this is not a specific attack on anyone just my observation so if you find my statement offensive do the world a favor and put a gun in your mouth and pull the trigger cause i don't care)

...I find discussions like this extremely humorous due to the fact that a year ago there were a ####load of complaints going around the Realms and everywhere else about how UDE was being unfair to certian teams by not giving them some sort of tutor to help smooth out the draws for the deck they wanted to play as well as a tutor to help with team ups... "i love arkham and x-men but there is really nothing i can put in there to smooth out the deck, UDE doesn't make it fair for all the teams......." waa waa.
So UDE responds by giving the players what they wanted in the sense that if you were playing a deck with a team up you could have a tutor to smooth out your curve or weenie deck. Which in essence, and retrospect we as players Begged and #####ed and Moaned for. *(this is the part where most of you seem to have selective amnesia) and now I see nothing but The Sky is Falling threads about a card that we asked for because someone beat them with it in their deck.

To me that is begging for a pair of plyers for a year or so and when the powers that be give you plyers you ##### that it isn't a ####ing hammer.

WTF PEOPLE C'MON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I know I could have posted this in any of the "I hate UDE because of EoME" threads but i chose to post in this one cause I also wanted to kill two birds with one stone and say congrats on the deck. and that i like it and want know how it fairs against other decks in the meta it was created for.

I do also agree the definition of hypocrite DOES NOT*(note the capatilization so as not to be misread)apply to Chdb where as he may feel one way however it is not within his power to change it, kinda like the tax comment that was posted a while back.

*please note idiot text has been added for those realmers not capable of reading comprehension. Another common problem with the members here on this site.

Squadron rush, Avengers reservist, and Good Guys were all hitting top tables before Enemy of My Enemy ever made it onto the tournament scene, along with AGL rush's brief flirtation with top tier. We were also starting to see the early Faces builds and weenie combo rush decks like GLEEVIL hit into the serious competitive zone.

I, like Dalton, have a huge issue with people not being able to finish a match in time. It seems that certain people are incapable of playing most non-curve decks to their natural conclusion within 30 minutes. This problem is compounded when two of these decks/players play each other. I have a fairly low tolerance for people who can't finish turn 5 in time with regularity. I had to resign myself to rushing people through turns and taking only 5-10 minutes of the clock if i ever wanted to play Galactus. Fortunately for me, most of my opponents were so busy making complicated plays that they just got crushed by a stupid 7/7 concealed guy and a little disruption.

Interestingly enough for this conversation, the rise of complicated recruit steps has everything to do with generic tutors, especially Enemy and Straight to the Grave.

Are you letting out the real secret super-tech? >_>; Oh noes!

heheheheee.....
sorry i couldn't get back to you before everyone else did, but i trust you get it now.
;-)

If you notice I also mentioned betrayal :) . Honestly I say keep Enemy because it keeps the metagame fresh, but reprinting flame trap and betrayal would also provide a counter for it. If you wanna toolbox characters go ahead, but take the risk of betrayal which is huge if you can do it against a curve deck. I do remember once when my opponent had Nimrod,Bastion, Magneto going betrayal, betrayal, Garth-Betrayal, he scooped pretty quick. I found it entertaining.

following up on what Dalton brought up about time and equality, I'm by no means advocating it, but it would be interesting to try with a more chess style clock, where each player is given equal time. It would be difficult to do given the nature of priority and repsonses, but it would be an interesting exercise.

don't they do that in Magic Online?
(i haven't actually played it myself... but that's my understanding from what others have said about it)

wow, really, dalton shouldn't be talking about people not finishing in time when he stalled against brandon for the win at pc la 05 last year.

Um, yeah, okay. Of all the matches of VS I've played in my life I'm going to stall in a CE vs. Titans one that I find to be a very favorable matchup? There was a judge at our match on multiple occasions (it was Dylan I think), he never mentioned anything about playing faster.

Sorry your friend lost, tell him to play faster next time and maybe he will win.

Don't pay attention to Darknight. He talks a lot of crap about things he doesnt know about.

yea like women, acting straight , all that stuff.

There were always craploads of different decktypes at older 10Ks as well, some of which had a bit of a chance in the face of the major decks. League of Assassins, Spider-Knights and Brave and the Bold decks, for example, frequently used to hover around the top tables in smaller numbers than CS and Titans, although they only rarely made top 8.

The point is that the heaps of different decktypes weren't really competitive in the face of the major archetypes, and the same is true in Silver, and those major archetypes are "toolbox curve/stall" and "weenie swarm running as many field attack pumps as possible."

AbDom probably wouldn't do much. It's easy to anticipate AbDom in Faces: one Ape X and one Reality Gem will do it, or Madame Xanadu and a couple copies of Transmutation.

True, although I should clarify.

The standard battle call for keeping Enemy is that it encourages deck diversity, but the fact is that suggesting that Enemy is all that keeps us having a diverse metagame is bollocks. Look at Indy's breakdown for DC Modern - seven major deck archetypes in a field where players only had nine teams to pick from. (Yes, it gradually stratified afterwards, but that's what happens in an environment composed of only two sets as opposed to eight, where meta options are more varied.)

On top of that, looking at the Columbus metagame, other than Lost In Space, there aren't any major archetypes (with the possible exception of Mental) that wouldn't work to some extent without Enemy. CMVU works well enough without it. So does Good Guys. So does Kree. (Well, for a given value of "works" - I think Kree is a terrible deck.) So does Squadron, and Heralds, and Injustice Gang. (In fact, Injustice Gang would only get stronger if Enemy was banned because Secret Files is less useful in a tournament scene where toolboxing is so prevalent.) But Enemy makes building these decks easier.

Really - UDE is bending over backwards to make teaming up easier and more accessible. Every set gives us at least one new team that's practically tailor-made for teamups, like Checkmate, VU, Marvel Knights, Secret Society or X-Men - and Enemy either diminishes their value or overpowers them. Every team now gets some form of character tutoring that usually ends up being very playable - just not as playable as Enemy is.

Lost In Space absolutely wouldn't function without Enemy (heck, it barely worked when it was lacking The Ring Has Chosen). The problem is that we didn't run Lost In Space because we really wanted to run a Society counter abuse deck; we ran it because we figured it was the best deck in the environment. (Well, I ran it as a second choice from my first decktype, which was Energy burn - and in retrospect given the Columbus field I probably SHOULD have run Energy burn. I certainly wouldn't have had Prosak complaining about slow play with THAT deck. Games last ten minutes, tops, either by victory or concession.)

Let me be plain: I think Lost In Space's very existence is solid proof of a unhealthy game environment. But if UDE is going to continue to allow an unhealthy game environment, we'd be fools to not try and exploit it when our goal is to play competitively.