I hate to tell you this, but your yardstick is not very representative of the facts. Over half of the people logged on this site have never posted, and it has always been that way. 80% of the players in our local community don't even pay attention.

Excellent post anyway. I can't wait to rep you as soon as my 24 hours are up. I think it's interesting that you think in those terms... as if you can be an accurate observer of the overall trends in Vs. System and the Realms, and then report your version of the sociology that is occuring across the entire community. I used to think like that too. It got me in a lot of trouble.

It's fun, pretending that one individual can be the judge of the whole situation. It rarely turns out to be the actual state of things, but it's fun.

I liked it. Thanks.

Activating Strategic Posting Mode:

Phase 1: Searching for Active Thread. Target "Ban List Updated." Target Aquired.

Phase 2: Negative Ionic Personalities clashing. Resonance found.

Phase 3: Pounce like an African Tiger on a three-legged Gazette

Phase 4: Eat Thin Wheats.

Phase 5: Curse Thin Wheats for ruining fillings.

If UDE had to "buy back" every card that it was about to ban, I think they would be much more hesitant to do it ... which is a poor reason to let a metagame go sour. Imagine if they had to pay $25 for every Enemy floating out there ... they'd never ban it!

For now I think taking the 30 cent hit on every Frankie/Nenora you own is probably a fine trade-off for an overall better play experience. Even when Overload was banned at around 5 bucks a pop, I'd say the $20 was a fair trade for no more Curve Sentinels mirrors.

When banning Characters, I would much rather prefer replacements to enhance the liability now presented to that team.

Key examples being:

1) Now with Frankie Raye banned, Heralds players are forced into doing one of two things. 1 being playing Galan, which isn't bad, but can't survive late game, or The Punishers, with the same aspect and horrible recruit condition. 2nd being just skipping Turn 1 with either no drop, or splashing teams to make a workable Combo.

2) With Nenora gone, The Kree have no decent 1 drops. They have Sintaris, but beyond turn 1 he is what you don't want unless you're discarding it. The Army Characters are decent, but they don't help the Press mechanic that many players explore. The Skrull also no longer have the 1 drop they needed. Not to mention her Kree effect no longer providing an affiliation for the Skrull theme.

Granted, I'm fully aware theres massive amounts of detail I did not go into, but I know someone will use that missing detail to explain this to me harshly.

I just feel that when playing VS, especially for me, the game becomes ruined when you're forced to sit down and re-do your entire deck because a character is banned. There are other combos for other decks, but when you're someone who wants to play Kree, Skrull, or Heralds as a Mono-deck, it hurts.


Going back on what was mentioned earlier about buying packs: I know what he's saying. When you open a booster pack of cards, you probably know what you're looking for. Either a $$ card, some missing commons you don't have, or firewood. When you ban cards from a set, you add firewood. In addition to the obvious amount of "Crap Rares" in a set, having cards banned increases the chance of buying a pack with absolutley NOTHING that you need whatsoever. For example, saving the $$ to buy one pack only to pull FrankieRaye, Valeria Von Doom, Nenora, O-Force, and the foil as a Valeria Von doom (this being a MHG pack) is just cruel if you're aren't playing X-Statix.

Wow, so you basically spent four paragraphs telling me "I'm wrong." Wow, if I needed bull#### fluffed up that much I would've listened to the State of the Union tonight.

*Looks at post count* - :( .

I think instead of post count I should've used posting frequency instead. But yeah, am I alone on this? Is Stu right and am I completely off track here?

He wasn't being sarcastic, just imagine what happens when you ban peoples $60 Enemies (some people have had to pay that much to get them right before a tourney).

"I know I made a big deal when cards got banned, but I think I can be a little mad at having usless cards that I paid 30 cents for."

I have played Raw Deal since it's inception over 5 years ago.

There has never been a money tournament for Raw Deal [officially anyway, there may have been events where the manager set it up to have a cash prize, but the only 'big' events are World Qualifiers that give a trip to Wrestlemania, which you could pay for with what you've likely spent on cards and making it out to a qualifier].

I first got into Vs. by buying the X-Men starter because I used to play Overpower.

I continued to buy the stuff, and was able to get my friends to buy some as well. We went down to the corner convience store because they had Marvel Origins.

I went to my first PCQ with a Superman clone deck, got by butt stomped by crazy stuff like Gamma Doom and Fat Bat that I didn't really understand.

I didn't go to a Sneak Peak until Marvel Knights, where I was able to get a PCQ top 8 with X-Statix. I didn't really start doing well until Avengers.

Even now, I'm a sealed player mostly, and as far as constructed goes, I've got some work to do. I have been to three PCs and have yet to Day Two. Part of it is a love of jank. My DC Modern deck looked to win with Deathstroke on 7, Dr. Fate on 8 and Monitor on 9. Because of Fiddler's banning, my Emperor Joker deck that actually COULD win is no longer viable.

However, ultimately, I guess I am 'mature' enough to realize that it's better to not have broken decks that to be able to play my personal pet deck 'as is'. Half the fun of jank is finding a way for it to work. Just like a new set means you have to change a bit to meet the new threats [or add the new tricks to your own deck] ... bannings are something that you just have to get used to.

Absolutely right. I do it ALL the time.

Maybe I went a bit 'overboard'.

But ultimately, there are more than just one person who have brought up the "they are banning soooooooooo many cards" comment.

I'm sorry if the other Walter took it as a personal attack [or that he somehow ruined my "calm"] but ultimately, I was addressing how they have NOT banned a lot of cards. It's a very small drop in a very large bucket. And, ultimately, it's a small price to pay to make things LESS cut throat.

Not banning those cards would have meant there would be much MORE cut throat stuff here.

Hey look, a generalized statement completely with hyperbole, stated as fact ;)

Good to know we have BackAgain to explain to us why we are all absurd and horrible. It's such a good thing that he's willing to debase himself and get down in the absurdity with use to show us the error of our ways.

I'm not a professional ... Perhaps I'd like to be.

Now, the argument can be made that the Pro Circuit focus caused Vs. to get off on the wrong foot.

However, yet again, you have just made a broad, generalized statement here.

Saying "Vs is going to die, there was a fatal flaw in it's initial design" is leaving no possibility for correction. You are saying that Vs. is doomed to failure, no ifs, ands or buts.

That kind of talk is ludicrous, irresponsible and ultimately pointless.

Now if you said:

"If this problem isn't addressed, Vs. is doomed to failure" then you are at least making a suggestion. You are saying there is a problem AND it can be solved.

However to do so would mean you'd have to then address the fact that there are a number of initiatives to make things work better on the casual front being put forth by UDE.

I do remember being 13 years old. And maybe 13 year olds will also say "you're stupid, shut up" just as much as to make statements as indisputable facts, and over exagerate.

Your argument is that, in order to get casual players involved we need to be more tolerant of SOME things [people just saying stuff without any support or backing] however we also have to stop people from posting responses to those things ...

Or should the responses just be equally unsupported.

It would be ok to say "you're stupid. what you said is wrong" and then NOT going into saying why.

Because at least then both posts would be equivalent ... statements that are unsupported, but stated as if they were fact.

Downhill from where exact?

And, of course, the way to increase the quality is to allow people to just make arbitrary statements, as if they were fact, and don't even ask them to at least try to back them up.

I'm sorry if I may have inadvertently asked a 13 year old to think critically, to state his opinion clearly, so that other people could understand what it is he was saying.

Maybe I should have just bit my tongue [or crossed my fingers in this case] and let him, and others, start a big ole' thread complaining about how there are soooo many cards banned.

And then, when this place is friendly and willing to allow new players to join they can see how nearly every pack they opened will have banned cards in it. They can see how there are soooooo many cards banned. And they can go and play a different game because no one seems to refute those claims.

Your right ... I'm currently soaking in a bathtub full of plasma as we speak.

Nothing makes me feel better than humiliating people with my massive dictionary ...

And once again you have improved the overall quality of people on this site, as it's obvious that it's people like me that are what is wrong with Vs Realms. If only there were more people like you on here.

**Ok ... I went for a bit of blood that time ;)**

If I were President, I would ban all politics.

No, I said you should reconsider the bird's-eye view. It helped me a great deal to break my drive to know it all and fix it all. You are a really fun person to have around and I think you could contribute a great deal to this community if you can learn to concentrate your efforts a little better. When I was running around trying to solve all the problems in the world I just ended up scattered and bitter. Find the fun and focus. Your goals are too lofty and they will be met anyway as soon as you sing in your own key instead of trying to conduct the whole symphony.

(Sorry if that is too flaky, that is really how I think.)

I guess after the smoke clears on this one, the next card on (some) people's crosshairs would be Enemy of my Enemy? Mr.Myx? Phantom Stranger?

Then by all means, flake away...flake away damnit!

Kovacs wins the thread.

But stu rules the realms.

Nuff Said.

So now that it's all over with, does anyone wanna talk about the "new" Silver Age Meta or the awesomeness that is MTU?

CC

One thing though:

Outside of outright banned cards ... playability is relative.

In a degenerate environment, the number of playable decks reduces significantly. So, while you could have a card you cannot play because one is banned ... not banning that card could make a bunch of other cards worthless.

If, for example, something that wins on turn 5 or 6 consistently and sometimes works on 4 ... and does so outside of combat ... then pretty much every combat pump, every character greater than 6, etc, etc, etc are useless.

It's all a hypothetical issue ... but either every card [outside of banned cards] are 'playable' in that they can hypothetically find their way into a set ... or you are determining playability based on how good a card is. At that point, you are getting into competitive play where banned cards are a problem, and thus make a lot of cards that would otherwise be good to instead be useless.

Just putting forth an alternative view point. Making a couple cards unplayable makes a lot of other cards and strategies "playable" by breaking the metagame open and allowing for more diversity outside of "broken combo" Vs. "deck that beats broken combo" Vs. "deck that loses to broken combo, but will beat decks that beat broken combo"

If everyone agreed collectively not to play degenerate decks, they'd never have to ban any particular card, just certain combinations of cards "I.e. you are allowed to play Overload, you just can't pump your opponent into it's range, promise? Unless it's only by a little bit perhaps ..."

The problem is, there is no way to enforce this, and so someone is going to go cutthroat and break the agreement. Unfortunately, that one bad apple ruins the bunch. So, the only way to keep things fair is to have an 'official' ban list, instead of an 'unofficial agreement/code of honor to not play broken stuff'.

I think UDE can afford it. They're making a massacre out from the new Machine Structure deck with Gadgets.