Örümcek, I respectfully disagree with your view on the number of VS teams. I think refeaturing teams is great, particularly the more popular ones or some that were not done well the first time. But they should also keep adding teams too. Further, they should add more Essential Collections if they can. Hellboy was a great product.

One of VS greatest assets comes from the diversity of teams. One doesn't need to know every one to play the game. One doesn't need to know every archtype from each MTG color to play MTG nor does a Yugi player need to know every Y decktype out there. For upper competition it would certainly be suggested. But for beginner-casual-intermediate, our target audience when speaking of VS for the masses, it does not matter.

MTG has well over 10,000 cards in it's card pool. Probably 15K+. Just because they fit in a handful or colors (including colorless), doesn't mean there aren't many, many different archtypes within each color. Further, all those arch types can be crossed over with multi color decks.

In fact, Wizards has gone to diversifying Magic to further support this with a heavy push to cards that allow you to pay either of two colors (they had somewhat splashed it before, but before recently it was never a major theme of a set.) I actually think they emphasized it from VS, as it's the closest MTG has to teaming up from what I can see.

Here are 41 different deck types from Yugioh, plus a few banned ones for extra. I could probably add another 20-40 if I wanted too. And Yugioh players keep asking for more support for the many different teams and Konami is delivering it. The latest set supports many, many of the tier 2 and tier 3 decks out there. I've never heard anyone say there are too many decktypes in Yugioh.

Warrior
Spellcaster
Dragon
Water decks
Exodia
Monarchs
Horus
Stall
Aggro Burn
Chainstrike Burn
D-Hero
E-Hero
Alien (A-counter)
Old Chaos (banned) & New Chaos
Demise
Skill Drain
Tomato Control (hand control)
Earth
Zombie
Fiend
Archfiend
Necrovalley
Dinosaur
Machine (XYZ, etc...)
General Beatdown (bunch high atk dudes)
Normal decks, beatdown style
Normal decks, little guy swarm (ojama)
Deck out (stall version and the banned Cyber Jar FTK)
Bazoo-Return
Strike Ninja
Goat control
Dark World
Beast-down
Spirit
Gadget
Poly decks (many types)
Light (Soul of Purity, Mudora, Airknight etc...)
Harpy
Crystal Beast
Ben Kai
Chimeratech OTK

Cyberstein (banned)
Tsyku-lock (banned)
Scientist (banned)

I used to think so... but with 50+ teams, if you don't know what each team does (at least the top tier ones), you are at a disadvantage. And... because there is no "tap" system, it's important to know what your opponent can play since he can basically play anything he wants from turn 4 on.
But should know how the color wheel works and which one is weak to which... that's the difference between VS and MtG, there is a rock/paper/scissors interaction between the colors.
Because most of the decks contain the same cards.
It does for deckbuilding... which I'll explain later.
But a casual player can take one pack from any number of sets and make a playable deck with them... you can't do that with VS.

Deckbuilding in VS is usually restricted to within a set or two... and if any of the teams are terrible, they stay that way... terrible. No help from any other sets because legacy is minimal and you can't really trade them for other cards since no one wants to play terrible teams. Whereas in Magic, you can always find someone to play red, green, blue, white or black. And... even if you try to stay in-brand... you have to skip a set in order to hope for cards that will make your Marvel deck from Set 1 better with cards that come from Marvel Set 2.
But how many of those are actually played?

Although there may be 41 different deck types for YGO, most cards printed in each set can be uses in previous decks. But with VS, every new team you introduce means a whole new deck. So if you think about it, at a minimum of just 1 team-up, there are (55 choose 2) combinations which is like 4000+ decks!

Even if there are that many sub types in MtG... they can always be simplified to their 5-color limit... meaning a red card I get in today's set, could be compatible with a deck I built 2 years ago.

Almost true, but not quite... you forgot to include lands in your equation. The only place you'd be able to buy packs and directly build a deck within the confines of said packs would be with a Base Set release... and you'd have to open quite a few packs to pull x number of the correct colors.

I know there is a minority of players who stick with the "Marvel only for me" or "DC only for me" mentality. You're looking at this a bit oddly, though. Most of the "Team A" vs. "Team B" set-up of the game has gone by the wayside... especially as far as "tourney decks" go. It is as easy in Vs. to recognize and build on a theme, or deck archetype as it is in MTG.

Besides, there are generic effects that can be played across the board in every set.

Again, the majority of the team releases feature archetypal themes that have been used previously by another team or can rely on the support of generic cards to flesh the deck out.

I don't find the idea of "4000+ decks" to be a bad thing... a bit daunting to a beginner? Perhaps, but imagine how anyone trying to break into MTG after 10+ years of expansions must feel about trying to complete an archetype deck! There is a lot more depth to MTG than "green, red, blue, white and black". You have themes supported by multiple colors and cards that cross the color wheel... it is not as simple as you're explaining it here. If a newb can grasp MTG, they'd have zero problems with Vs.

Again, I believe you're oversimplifying a real (read: playable and competitive) MTG deck. Sure, you could run 60 red cards... but do they work together or even have a common theme? Are you building land destruction, rush, burn or something specific?

You gotta be kidding me.... Not including the decks that are out of the format, there is only 6 decks on that list which are even close to playable (and that's being lenient). \=

And, how many Tier 1 teams are there in Vs? More than 6, but certainly not by much. In any game, there are a limited number of really good teams/archetypes. His point wasn't about good decks - it was about the massive variety that YGO has.

Common sense dictates that Vs is actually EASIER for a new player to break into. Let's say you're talking to a new player - or, even, a player just decides they want to get into it without knowing anyone who plays.

If there were only a few teams, they would have to either, a) research deeply to see which set contains which of their favorite characters, b) buy a ton of packs from each of those sets or just singles, which doesn't move boxes.

Right now, everyone I know who has gotten into the game after me went like this: "My favorite team is X-Men...what should I...oh. There's an X-Men set." or, "I really like Avengers. Where can I find Natasha and Iron Man? Oh...in an Avengers set."

With your limited team sets, yes, it would be easier to buy across sets if you don't care at all what characters you get. But, as it is, it is many, many times easier for a casual player to find the teams and characters they like.

Yes, I could buy three packs from this set and five packs from that one in Magic and make a deck. A deck essentially without land unless you buy a specific set or a whole lot of singles, which will never win a game. So...yeah, that's not a very fun way to play a game at all. Magic requires a much bigger investment of money and time to get into than Vs.

Quick note on the teams thing:

It's an argument that has been hashed out before on these forums, on several occasions. Without delving back into the minutia of the same debate once again, the general consensus was:

1) The game cannot go back to just adding 4 new team affiliations every set.

2) The game cannot stop adding new team affiliations.


So they need to focus on keeping around certain "core teams", focus on refeatures, and still add the occasion new team (~1/set).

I'm sure, both since we've brought this up (and gone into great depth) on multiple occasions on these forums, and just looking at the tactics UDE has been employing (such as, exactly what was mentioned - look at World's Finest), that they are aware of both sides of this issue and have found what they and a majority (I believe) of us believe is an optimal solution.

The core characters thing is also an addressed issue. In fact, that's the whole premise behind the upcoming "Legends" block.

Are there any new areas for change?

And I think the four set cycle we have just begun proves that they understand the issue.

(Access, check your PM in a minute.)

Awesomeness. :grin:

This one strikes me odd If I want to give out free swag like boxs. Granted I am taking the risk that they may never play. If I want to take that chace even a 50/50 on at that I'll take it. I said it before if I can bring one player to the game a month I fell good about that. I LOVE THIS GAME and will do anything in my power to help it grow.

On the other hand if you can't give them free cards or what ever than maybe let them use a deck any time they show up for tournaments. Maybe help them build a deck. Show them where they can get cards cheap. I think ANY thing you do to get more people into the game your ACES with me. If you sit around complaining about how to get people into the game. Than do some thing about it.

ONE more thing the number one thing they could do to help grow the game. I've said it before and I'll say it again ADVERTISE.

Giving out stuff to new players is fine. My caveat was you couldn't give out a box to EVERY person in the world.

The biggest problem with advertising is it's a high cost endeavor with little guarantee of results. But that's why Marvel/DC should actually let UDE advertise for little or no cost in their books to help propogate the brands.

The whole "too many teams" thing is a re-hash but I felt it needed to be addressed. Chug is right that my response was a bit simplified, but the fact remains that too many teams makes it a high barrier of entry for new players because many of the cards are team-specific. The fact that UDE is putting out a Legends series only featuring the big teams is evidence that they are aware of these issues. Does this mean they will not continue to add new teams? I don't know. If I were to design the future sets... I would only add new teams as add-ons to existing ones (which I know is difficult for some teams)... or make them the 5th team in the set... not one of the 4 primaries.

It's important in EVERY card game to have an idea what your opponent can play. 50 teams or 50 archtypes -- there's not much difference. MTG colors have very different archtypes within them, even if some are lesser played like many VS teams are. Your strategy against Red burn will be different than it will against Red Goblins or Land destruction.

You try to make it sound like within one color there is only one strategy. That is simply not true.

There are more generic type cards in Yugi than the other major games. But the number of staples are shrinking as the deck types keep becoming diverse. Yeah, at one point like 3 years ago most competitive decks contained 30+ of the same cards, but not anymore. Playing against Demise is very different from Monarchs. Playing against Horus is very different from Gadgets which is very different from Crystal Beast which is very different from playing against Dark World. So you run into the same dilema that there are sooo many deck types a player has to know to be successful, even in Yugioh. But really, in casual play, does it matter much? No.

VS does take buying from generally the same set or two to get good synergy. But can not take one pack on any number of sets and make something playable with other games.

Gee, is my Umi-Tomato-Archfiend-Spellcaster-EHero Yugioh deck built from a handful of packs going to be playable?

Will my MTG red deck that runs some goblins, a few burn cards, a few land destruction cards and hey, here's a few red slivers to throw in and I'll top it off with a Shivan Dragon for a finisher be playable?

Those are just as craptacular as a Titans-New Gods-Future Foes deck would be.

There are archtypes in MTG that are clearly inferior to others. Get a rare for that archtype? Sucks to be you. I've been wanting to build a Thunder deck in Yugioh for ages -- too bad it has no support. Rock and Dinos suck too & they even had a structure deck for them. It's the same issues in other games too. Every team and every archtype can't be great. I believe VS is actually the best of having the most rock/papers/scissors that are playable.

Quote:
Here are 41 different deck types from Yugioh, plus a few banned ones for extra. I could probably add another 20-40 if I wanted too.

How many of the 55 VS teams are actually played? See, you've changed the original issue. The issue was 55 teams are too many. But all the big games have many, many archtypes/teams. VS just has them a little more obviously branded.

There are more than 41. And again, refer to the synergy part. These E-hero or Alien cards I open in a set aren't going to do much for my Monarchs or Chimeratech deck.

You say it like it's a bad thing!

But seriously, I can mix life gain and burn in MTG. I can mix many different archtypes and colors in MTG. I can build a creature less Walking Stones deck. Just because there are insane possiblities doesn't mean one has to build them all.

And if you want to measure it by how many possibilities are there, the true number is how many cards are in the card pool. MTG is what, 10-15K? I think VS is actually slightly ahead of Yugioh. So really, the possibilities are a lot more wide open in MTG. Even if %80 (I've heard MTG players actually say %90) of the card pool sucks, there are still more possibilities.

Getting a red Sliver doesn't really mean it's compatible with a red Goblin deck just because it's red.

And if we were to go by your analogy, if all I care about is one color, then %80 of every MTG pack I buy is completely worthless.

I understand your view to an extent. Yes, it is hard to build a good synergized deck from random sets in VS. But that's true of the other games as well. Don't blame it on too many teams.

That still costs Marvel/DC money: the money they'd make by selling that space. The money that justifies their profit. I'm not saying they shouldn't do that, I'm just saying it isn't really "cheap/free" advertising.

I don't see how that proves that "UDE is aware that having too many teams is a problem". I see that UDE is trying to promote the teams that will attract attention. A new player may not know who Shadowpact is, but they know who the JLA are. That doesn't mean that "new teams" is a problem, it just means that lately, the game hasn't been promoting the teams that will attract new players.

And you make it seem that each VS team only has one archetype... which makes the combinatorics even worse for VS.

Regardless of the number of strategies within a color, the overall purpose of the color wheel is a synergetic map of what works with what. VS in 3 years has created more archtypes than most games with much longer history.

But we are straying. The purpose of this discussion is how to get more people playing the game. Someone posted that making it simpler with less teams was a possible solution. You even admitted yourself that it makes it harder for new players. And that's the point... we want to make it easier. If you can't see that reducing the number of teams isn't a way to make it easier... then we just disagree. I was just trying to point to the other side of the coin since the OP didn't defend his remarks.
This is a bit misleading. The game engine requires that many of the VS cards be stamped specifically for each team. Games like Magic will sub-archetype-stamp their effects but the costing engine is based on the color wheel which makes it simpler. Sure, UDE can continue to print "Target character gets +2 ATK, if it has the Future Foes affiliation it also gains flight and range" but then we get into increasingly complex templating issues.
If you really want to measure viable cardpool, just check the secondary market value of singles. I admit it has a lot to do with the number of people buying in the secondary market but if you use relative prices within the VS sets, you will see that there more "sucky" cards overall in VS.
Again, we will just have to disagree. I used to think "unlimited number of archetypes" was a good thing but there is a point where it creates design and resale problems. Because of the way VS is so strongly structured around team-stamping, it actually makes it difficult to cultivate a synergistic template over the whole set. You can still have an "unlimited archetype" system, but there has to be a base template to keep the system manageable and easy to understand for new players... which is what the color wheel provides.

I don't think we've made more archetypes than Magic, yet. How are you defining archetypes? Because, while Vs. has many paths to any one archetype (stall, burn, rush, swarm, army, etc...), they can generally be mixed and matched pretty good. If I want to build an army deck, I can go AGL, or Moloids, or War Paint...or I can mix them. I had a Doom/Anti-matter deck that mixed Doomed Earth with AGL's (if they're gonna get KO'd, why not make 'em useful?). You can throw Injustice Gang army enablers - Shadow Thief - in to make a Random Punks deck, or you can throw an unaffiliated enabler - Felix Faust - in to an AGL build. It's all the same archetype, an Army deck, it's just built a little differently. Which means fewer dead cards, too, as multiple different ways to build a good Army deck means that people who pulled this army but not that one can still build a fun, competitive deck. There's no single, optimal Army deck that every card feeds into and is measured against.

Then again, I could be thinking of something when I think of archetypes, especially if it's something Magic specific. I tried to break into Magic last year, and I just didn't enjoy it. You have to buy way too much from way too many sets to make a deck that can even survive a certain number of turns against everyone's older decks. Which, to me, illustrates the best thing about Vs. Want to make a competitive, cheap deck? Buy a box of Avengers for 20 dollars off ebay, and you should be pretty close to solid. Same thing with Crisis, though those boxes are still pretty expensive.

I completely agree and disagree with Erick. I love the infinite teams, its what I want. So many teams diminishes the value of cards in the secondary market making it a difficult game for dealers to support. So many teams makes it difficult for johny newbe to pick up a pack here or there every set or so and keep pumping his Big Brotherhood.

Honestly most of this wouldn't even be an issue if the X-men were at least tier 1.5 playable because we wouldn't have alienated 50% of the people who tried this game, even if we'd recovered with their namesake set we'd be better off than we are today. But hey I've read the comics, while the Sentinels may win some battles, the X-men should win the day, or at least stand a chance of winning the day.

If there is no top tier X-men deck in the legends set we might just see the sky fall on our sinking ship. Wow that was gloom and doomy for me, but I love this game and want it to do well. I will buy and play as long as they continue to print the game in a format I recognize (I dumped Jyhad despite my love when they altered the backs of all the new cards...FU I said).

I still feel the single most important thing this company can do to grow this game is remain consistant with its follow through.

oh yeah and let some folks who don't already know about the game know about the game. Its an inventive new and completely untested strategy which despite being "...a high cost endeavor with little guarantee of results." (Originally Posted by erick) has shown some limited success for other cutting edge companies willing to try out this new idea.