We may just have to agree to disagree on the vehicles. Shorter ranges and lower defenses means you need either a tank drop, or you need to herd your opponent into the range of your vehicles. They may be faster, but while they're moving into position to fire, my longer ranged units are standing and firing, requiring less orders (in the case of Falcons having to tank drop) or not needing an assault order to return fire b/c of longer ranges.

As for the arty:
Sniper: Needs a 10+ to hit a target where the pog is under it's center dot. Drift is only forward meaning there are plenty of places to move to get away from blast/drift if you miss.

Hadur: exact same as the Sniper, except needs an 11 to hit a center-dotted target.

Towed Thunder: Yes it has AP damage and IT and 2 targets, but it's only a 1 inch pog. That means you have to hit and there's little chance for an effective blast radius/drift

Centaur: same as Towed Thunder, but no AP, only 1 target and shorter range

Long Tom: may have a low defense, but it has the range to cover almost the whole board, as well as AP damage. The drift directions means only one drift area is safe which you can use to herd people or at least make sure they could possibly be hit.

SM2: has a longer range than the vaunted Towed Thunder. Give it a move order straight out and then it can cover a large portion of the board. Has AP damage and most drift directions covered.

I think they'll adapt wantec, I've yet to meet a CJF player that doesn't give me a run for my money.

Hail Trothkin,

Requiring any number under 13 to hit a pog is reasonable. I should also point out that there have been inaccurate artillery units used effectively in the past simply by understanding drift characteristics.

It was my origins in the LAAF under the tutelage if Hellcat that I came to learn how to calculate the drift of a pog 80% of the time...so missing was not that much of an issue. I *knew* where the pog would go, and place it off target intentionally.

Well said Raven. Take for example the Hadur with its 'all forward' drift pattern. By placing the pog in front of a target you stand a very good chance of your arty round coming down where you want.


@Wantec
As for 'herding' opponents units, I like playing 2 to 4 TTL dropped by a pair of MHIs about half way up either side of the board. With 8 pogs to play with herding units becomes very simple. As for the rest of your assessment on our vehicles we may indeed have to agree to disagree. The great thing about our touman is that what we allegedly lack in vehicles we more than make up for in infantry and 'mechs.

Cheers,:)

Goreb

Most heavy vehicles these days, with the possible exception of the FP-era Kelswas, are mech-bait/baser-bait and must be dropped, period. There is no effective tactical use of most vehicles except in a tank drop scenario. Arty and VTOLs are the two exceptions, for obvious reasons.

If you leave vehicles out in the open they will die or be swarmed and do you no good. If you attack the swarmers you're not attacking the big units you're trying to threaten. It's a losing battle. For the vast majority of any deployments, tanks get one shot and then get based or slagged.

The exceptions to this, in my current opinion, are the Cizin and Kite, who work best in a pack hunter mode where you simply cannot kill them before they deal irreparable damage.

I would go back and look again. Calculate the odds of my pog hitting if I place a Sniper pog two inches in front of my target. The best placement is actually off to an angle, at the right, as then only a 4 (forward and right) result will miss, giving it a 16.7% chance of missing the target. That's 83% accurate, which is much, much better than a 10. The Hadur has a slightly more symetrical pattern, and as such is slightly less accurate, but still much more so than you think.

The Long Tom will not survive past one volley, maybe two. The long range is irrelevant on a 36 inch board. The SM2 can't hold people off since the effective range means a) it's firing second and pushing in a pog war and b) it's only just over an assault order. The TTLs are very good because they are relatively immune to energy, which the SM2 is not, and have two pogs and can be infiltrate dropped on the first turn which (long sentence) means they are not firing second in a pog war and aren't pushing to pog.

Also, you seem to assume that lots of drift is good. It's not, really. See the Sniper and Hadur for examples: predictable drift means much, much more dangerous pogs. In addition, the fact that you can run towards me to avoid my pogs is a positive bonus. Then my short ranged tank drops and mechs can meet your running, hot, long range mechs and make them into chop suey.

Please tell me im not crazy to run my madcat with inferno flamers?:nervous:

You're not crazy....though you do border on Falcon Aggression Disorder... ;)

That! i can live with:D

Maybe it is just me and my dislike for 1" pogs. Too many times I have seen someone dance around a 1" pog without really changing position. By this I mean that they move where the pog cannot drift and hit them, but it is so similar to their original location that the attempt to herd them is negliable.

Maybe it is just my general dislike for vehicles in general and my play style. The only use I see for vehicles (VTOLS not included) in a Jade Falcon army is one of these three: transport, repair, or VC3 runners. If there is a big target to crack, well that is where the superior targeting of my mechs and infantry formations comes in.

Well each dance is a click of heat. Eventually they're in a position where they vent or shutdown. And that's when you drop your big mech in to visit. If they shoot at the mech, they overload and shutdown. If they vent, maybe the big mech takes them apart. Either way, it's a win-win (and I'd suggest basing with an infantry just to make them even more nervous).

Repair's very weak in a CJF army; lots of repair markers there. Transport's critical, as are the occasional VC3 dash. But a tank drop can be useful for 'medium weight' attacks. Take out their ATVs in one shot or attack their tank drops or even attack their big mech. Not many people like eating a Hail Mary and a tank drop is a pretty scary Hail Mary attempt.

For example, I often used an army built something like Loki, R10/Kelswa, small Saxons/Infantry/Generic Problems. The Loki was a headhunter, no doubt. But I didn't want to waste him cleaning up things like ATVs or VTOLs or other small units. So I dropped the Kelswa on them and destroyed them in one hit. That kept my big mech clean and cool while giving me a VC advantage. Tank drops are great for cleaning up stuff 'beneath' my 300 point behemoth.

R10/Huey + R10/3xSnipers = 17 AV @19" for 8 dam +1 heat:knockedou . While I am in no way discounting the great advantage our high AV 'mechs enjoy it is tough to argue the merits of the preceding equation if you need to crack that fatty hiding in the woods.

Regarding the 1" pogs, yes they are easy to skirt, but like Highdancer said each step of the dance is a click of heat and that catches up to any 'mech in a hurry. Also, with several 1" pogs you can place them where your opponent is 'likely' to move forcing him to move where it is more advantageous for you and less for them. Yes it is evil and yes it is fun:devious: .

Cheers,:)

Goreb

The thing is that costs you 247 points and a lot of orders to use. And the only way to get the 19" is to use a tank/infantry drop which costs you 3 of your 4 orders for the turn.

Where as a Goshawk with Joe Gaskill costs 162 points and can MDFA a target for 5 impact damage. Counting the mech base sizes into it, the Goshawk can MDFA from 14" away, 18" if you add RISC Overcharger. If your target has reflective or hardened armor, the Goshawk MDFA does only 1 less damage to the target. The mech and pilot has a 12 attack, but it will ignore evade and decoy, as well as any hindering terrain or cammo modifiers. The target will get a +2 to it's defense, but you'll get 4 attack dice, which average a 14, meaning your MDFA from the Goshawk will on average hit a target defense of 26. Plus, 5 impact damage is usually more than enough to knock around any of the big fatties. If not, you can follow up with a Phoenix Hawk I with pilot and IT or a Loki with pilot and IT.

While I can not argue with your logic I like to think of us both being right with the takeaway being that with so many great units there is always more than one way to 'skin a Nova Cat':devious: . Great discussion BTW.

Not wanting to double-post, my group usually runs 1050 pt games with 6 orders. That said, how would any of you build and execute a swarm style army using primarily infantry with limited vehicle/'mech support. My opponents often run 'mech-heavy forces and it would be fun to see their jaws drop when they look across the board and see a sea-of-green full of our excellent infantry.

Cheers,:)

Goreb

And 247 is the price of a heavy mech without gear (but with pilot, in some cases), which doesn't have the same AV (or range, but we'll assume it's an AO, but that makes the effective AV even higher). It's a trade. Tank drops give you more range and better ablative armor at the expense of orders. Mechs give you more options at the expense of eggs and baskets.

As an example, compare a PHI to a R10/Kelswa. Very similar at the core. 5 damage, similar range, similar price. But the PHI can act multiple turns without damage and doesn't take two orders. But the R10/Kelswa can take a hit without losing that 5 damage and has a 24DV deployed. Which is better? Me, I say yes. ;)

There is absolutely no way to get the AV of a tank formation drop on a mech, ever. Simple math. Now, is it worth it? Myself, I don't think so; I don't use them much anymore. But they do exist as an option. The cost? Using lots of orders. You get something, you pay something. That's always the calculus. What do you get vs. what are you willing to pay. I think tank drops (especially CJF with their DV issues and all vehicles, period, since DA) are quite worthwhile and worth playing.

Why not try a combo of the two, i loved the reaction when my Loki and Hue nuked a davion loki in one round and two turns later did the same to a banson solitaire:devious: Also recon posted a akimbo loki army, now if i had two of those babies that would be my army of choice for those realy important matches!