The thing I think I hate most about The Marvels underperforming (other than that it's a very solid movie, quite possibly the best they've made in a while) is that it feels like the CHUDs winning. Like, those a-holes who've made it their career to stoke hatred for Brie Larson to drive up views to their YouTube channels and the idiots who keep their view counts up. They don't deserve to win.

You're not wrong. It sucks that it sure looks like these dudes are winning this particular argument.

The only real defense I have in this case is to compare the film's RT and audience scores. The people who've seen the movie generally find it enjoyable... but it just doesn't have the box office of a wildly popular movie, and it's SUCH a comedown from its predecessor.

The problem, I think, has less to do with the movie itself (though focusing on Disney+ characters and not calling it 'CAPTAIN MARVEL 2' was a clear mistake. It got that exact title for its Chinese release) and more to do with overall problems facing Hollywood right now.

Blockbusters have been struggling all year with a few key exceptions. Most of Disney's movies have bombed and most other big genre movies have only broken even at best. BARBIE and OPPENHEIMER are the big outliers for being works of incredible quality and having something new and exciting to offer.

Some of the blame can be cast at bland genre offerings. THE MARVELS, like many other blockbusters this year, is good, not great, and in this movie climate, that's not enough to draw people to the theaters.

A large part of the blame can be leveled at the Hollywood-wide pivot to streaming. With major movies pushed to streaming and theatrical windows severely shortened, audiences have been trained to wait for streaming. Not sure if they want to spend the money on a Universal movie? No problem. It'll be on streaming in 45 days. Same for Disney's umbrella of studios.

Party to all of that is the MCU's oversaturation of middling content -shows and movies- over the last couple years. If very little of it is special or obviously contributing to the bigger picture, why not just wait to streaming if you even bother watching at all?

Pivoting to streaming also severely hurt the home video physical sales market. Video rental stores were a cornerstone of a given movie's profit. With most of them gone and purchases of physical media WAY down, titles have even fewer ways of recouping their costs. That means that a movie almost HAS to make a profit in theaters or it isn't making a profit at all.

Again, that's not limited to Marvel Studios-- these are industry-wide problems.

I know this has been my mantra for the last few months, but it gives me hope that Disney & Marvel are in a reevaluation cycle and have been forced to slow down and figure s*** out. A year's break from films will help them, and slowing down shows to figure out a better organizational structure for making them will also help a great deal.

Yeah, we're in a weird place movie-wise. I think this may be an ugly transition period that's going to make things look worse and more dire than they may actually be.

I think one big problem is that they're spending too much money on making movies, by and large. Not just Marvel Studios, but definitely Marvel Studios. Like I think we're well overdue a mid-to-low budget Marvel Studios offering. Like I hope that when Blade finally rolls around, he's got a nice, modest budget and relies more on practical effects and on-location filming than green screen and CGI.

It's crazy to me that the only thing that made Quantumania a box office flop was how much it cost to make. I mean, it took in just under half a billion dollars, but because it cost so much to make, that wasn't good enough. It's not that people didn't go see it, because clearly, at that much box office, a lot of people saw it. It's just that it cost too much for an Ant-Man movie.

So yeah, budgets desperately need to get reined in.

But yeah, with The Marvels, I loved it. I may have even liked it more than Guardians 3. I appreciated the abbreviated run time, I really enjoyed how much like a comicbook crossover it felt like, especially with them giving the pared-down "here's the essential information you need to know about these characters" information for anybody who either hadn't seen WandaVision and Ms. Marvel or could use a little refresher that you expect to see in crossover comics, and I especially appreciated how Carol got a little bit more room to breathe as a character, since she's no longer under a fog of amnesia for most of the movie (though I did like how she's still got some memory issues so it's not entirely swept under the rug).

But I get the inherent problems here. For a non-comics literate audience, they may have felt pressured to have seen Ms. Marvel and WandaVision before this, even though that isn't really necessary, and it's perfectly fine to go see The Marvels and maybe be inspired to check out Kamala's show afterward because she was so delightful in this movie. I mean, I can't tell you how many times I would get clued in to a character I wasn't really big on because they showed up in a crossover story and then be inspired to check out their own book.

But a comics-illiterate audience probably doesn't understand that. Which is a shame.

Fully agree with all that. Hollywood is still acting like they can budget their films like China’s box office is going to save them, but they tightened up their restrictions right around the start of the pandemic (which is also still a factor in attendance). EVERYTHING is too big to fail.

I still think SHANG-CHI would’ve benefitted from being a more grounded, mid-budgeted martial arts movie. It’s telling that when I think of that movie, I first remember the special effects, then the family drama, and THEN the fighting.

Traditionally speaking, studios balance larger movies with a bunch of smaller movies. They and especially the home video market help maintain a steady source of profit to justify a couple big movies a year. With the home video market drying up, many studios are focusing on big movies to hope to attract as many people to theaters as the primary income source. The thought for every project is “go big or go home.”

I figure that’s why the recent Spider-Man movies have been bonkers in scale, why Shang-Chi was almost Avengers-big, and why Marvel has been reluctant to use smaller-scale adventures for their other characters. They might also have had to wait until 2024 to use/reboot the Netflix characters as they needed to do with Fantastic Four and X-Men.

Plus side, it does sound like they’re shooting for a lower-budgeted Blade movie, partially out of necessity -that thing’s been in development hell so long that they’ve undoubtedly overspent on it already. I kinda hope Marvel Studios will start diversifying their slate with projects of varying size but with no less impact.

Haven’t chimed in in a while, but love what you did with The Marvels trio dials!

How we feeling after the Majors verdict/firing?

Many thanks, friend! Glad you enjoyed them! They were quite tricky to execute.

As to Jonathan Majors, my gut reaction is that people who commit domestic abuse should be punished. I’ve been pretty consistent with that feeling throughout these threads. That said, I’m mixed on this specific case after reading Sceritz’s thoughts on the trial and its outcome. I genuinely don’t know what to do with this one, and won’t get further into it.

As to how Marvel might pivot from dropping Majors, Siddhant Adlakha has a great article breaking down options.

Speaking personally, I’m more than ready to be done with the multiverse, but recognize that it probably won’t go away until after SECRET WARS… assuming that the next two Avengers movies don’t change altogether in the next couple years. I hope that whatever comes out next is good and not reliant on cameos and nostalgia from 20+ years ago. I’m not the biggest Fox X-Men fan (even less so now, as it’s impossible for me to watch the movies without seeing Bryan Singer’s victims), and NO WAY HOME flatlined for me, so what’s coming doesn’t excite me much. I may actually burn down Hollywood if Nic Cage comes back as Ghost Rider.

I’ve always been more interested in the stuff not reliant on Majors. Thunderbolts, Blade, Doctor Doom & Galactus, the rebooted X-Men, Venom, and honestly Kraven. In those regards, I just need Marvel to spend its 2024 -mostly a break year- getting its s*** together and getting back to more consistent quality. Haha I don’t expect Sony to ever be more than mediocre.

WHAT IF...? SEASON TWO THOUGHTS

"What If... Nebula Joined the Nova Corps?"

Things I Liked
+BLADE RUNNER-inspired episode, mood, and aesthetics

Things I Didn't Like
-Everyone's flat affect and predictable structure made the whole thing boring for me.

"What If... Peter Quill Attacked Earth's Mightiest Heroes?"

Things I Liked
+1980s Avengers had some fun picks. Wendy Larson, Bill Foster, and T'Chaka were smart choices.

"What If... Happy Hogan Saved Christmas?"

Things I Liked
+DIE HARD references & story structure

Things I Didn't Like
-At the best of times, I am not a Happy Hogan nor a Jon Favreau fan.
-Strongly dislike the idea of an Avengers Christmas gala. I've never liked the Avengers in part because they're a very celebrity-fied, wealthy group of law enforcers. The idea of them having a branded Christmas gala makes them feel too much like THE BOYS' the Seven for my liking.

"What If... Iron Man Crashed Into the Grandmaster?"

Things I Liked
+DEATH RACE 2000 references and the race itself

Things I Didn’t Like
-Wow, am I over Taika Waititi’s sense of humor. This was that on overdrive, so the episode just felt annoying to me.
-Tony does all the heavy lifting in this episode and causes both the downfall of the Grandmaster and Thanos. Why wouldn’t the Watcher choose him to be a Muliversal Avenger and why would he pointedly say, “Not you” to him?

I'm noticing that this season is thus far leaning more heavily on recognizable movies for its narratives. Like the first season, it feels very fan-friendly with tons of callbacks performed by voice actor sound-almost-alikes. Your mileage may vary on if that's fun or insufferable (it's case-by-case for me). Like most anthology shows, I think episode quality is going to vary significantly.

Personally? I'm hoping that this season is as Captain Marvel-heavy as the previous season was. I look forward to seeing more of Captain Peggy Carter, and I hope we see Man-Thing and maybe the Eternals, though I'm not holding my breath on either.

"What If... Captain Carter Fought the Hydra Stomper?"

Things I Liked
+Splicing WINTER SOLDIER’s lore with BLACK WIDOW’s.
+Marvel 1602 twist

Things I Didn’t Like
-Too strong a sense of familiarity with the episode’s setting, characters, and narrative arc

Could just be me, but this season feels a little weaker than S.1. The plot structures feel too familiar, the character variants don’t feel as novel or interesting, and the twists don’t feel as continuity-shaking. I look forward to the Marvel 1602 stuff because I liked that comic, but so far, this is feeling more like a chore to me than much else.

"What If... Kahhori Reshaped the World?"

Things I Liked
+Originality of narrative, historical interplay, interesting new character
+diverse voices having a presence in the MCU along with the power to shape it

Things I Didn’t Like
-Now I have to wait for the next episode.

This episode felt as poignant, beautiful, authentic, and powerful as BLACK PANTHER had, and its big what if —what if indigenous Americans had never been colonized or if they had repelled the colonizers— is clearly one that countless people across countless heritages have wondered. It’s a deeply earnest story that feels like existing folklore retold for wider audiences. I’m glad to have experienced this story, and I hope to see more like it.

"What If... Hela Found the Ten Rings?"

Things I Liked
+Shang-Chi’s lore got some more play
+Hela, Goddess of Peace/Life

Things I Didn’t Like
-More Asgardian stuff
-Please tone down the quippiness by 20%
-Odin, Hela, and Wenwu are three war criminals with countless atrocities apiece all arguing over who gets to be the most peaceful and how…? through more violence.

"What If... the Avengers Assembled in 1602?"

[u]Things I Liked[u]
+Fun, funny episode using nearly all the toys in the toy box

Things I Didn’t Like
-Nowhere near as smart as Gaiman’s Marvel 1602
-No interaction with the Kahhori episode, even though it’d make sense

"What If... Strange Supreme Intervened?"

Things I Liked
+Big-ass fight scene with all the toys in the toy box that focuses on the ones that matter.
+More Kahhori. Hope she finds herself in a movie soon!

Things I Didn't Like
-Reliance on first season things for the finale. Would have enjoyed events from this season to have become more relevant. Like maybe Queen Isabella retaliates by becoming the big bad of Kahhori's universe, so Kahhori has to recruit help from the multiverse?
-------------------------------------------------------------
PSA: I will not be dialing any of the characters until after the season finale, mostly because I hope to keep the list of dialed characters to a minimum.

Luckily, Wilx is doing a terrific job with their It's Time For A What If Season 2 Set! Spoilers!!! set, where they appear to be exhaustively dialing the characters. If I don't decide to dial a character, there's a great chance they'll appear in that thread!

In retrospect, WHAT IF...? S.2 disappointed me. Fewer of its threads drew together as S.1's had, and a few of the episodes were more throwaway.

Of them, Nebula's felt the most bland and disappointing. Why would you start a season with an episode packed with characters with flat affect and little to no charisma? Yeah, the BLADE RUNNER-inspired visuals were cool, but good lord, this episode was pretty damn boring.

To make matters worse, Corpsman Nebula never became relevant in the finale. Yeah, WHAT IF...? can be disconnected bottle episodes, but because we're primed after S.1 to see them connect somehow, it makes one think that each episode should in some small way build to what follows. To me, that makes this episode feel disposable.



#206 Corpsman Nebula
Team: Police
Range: 5
Points: 50
Keywords: Nova Corps, Detective, Police, Robot

6 11 18 3

6 11 17 2

6 10 18 2

6 10 17 3

6 11 18 2

6 10 17 3

KO KO KO KO

KO KO KO KO

KO KO KO KO

KO KO KO KO

KO KO KO KO

KO KO KO KO

I Was Onto You From the Start: Protected: Outwit. // Outwit.
Yondu's Arrow: Improved Targeting: Ignores adjacency. Nebula does not need line of sight for ranged attacks.

Friendly reminder that for my own sanity, I'm not dialing everybody; only those who seemed to be the most unique and relevant. If you'd like to see as many characters dialed as possible, Wilx's It's Time For A What If Season 2 Set! Spoilers!!! set has you covered C;

In other news, I've got a DC set brewing, and that's taking most of my attention. Stay tuned, friends! Interesting stuff ahead.

Thanks for the shout outs. It has been a fun set to do over break. I was a little worried I'd be stepping on your toes, so I'm relieved to see it's not too bad. I am excited to see you how your approach differs where there is overlap.

I am really looking forward to you commentary on the characters and further look into each episode, always the best part of your threads.

I enjoyed the Noir detective feel of the Nebula episode. I am a big fan of Nebula though, as a direct result of Endgame. I am still a little frustrated that she didn't get to participate in the football carry of the Infinity Gauntlet in that final battle. It would have been a nice cap stone to her turn and would have mirrored her and Stark's paper football game at the beginning of the film. Everyone talks about the Blade Runner visuals, but am I the only one who saw Judge Dredd inspiration in the Nova Corpsman helmets?

It was fun to see Howard on Xandar, but I would have enjoyed seeing other aliens besides Korg. Not sure who would have fit off the top of my head though. Maybe some of Stallone's Ravagers?

You never have to worry about stepping on my toes, friend. I don’t own these characters, and even if I did, I’d be excited to see different interpretations. Yours are all excellent and fun-looking! I see that we touched on a few of the same ideas throughout, but I don’t think our characters will have too much overlap in mechanics and design.

Yeah, I agree that Nebula deserved better from the season. Real shame she didn’t return for the finale. Now that you mention it, I can kind of see Judges in the helmets and in the more urban-emphasized world.

Stallone’s Ravagers would’ve been a good touch, as would’ve John C. Reilly’s corpsman. I suspect that each season of WHAT IF…? is limited by the major talent they can sign and a set number of characters to use. The more different character and actors, the more expensive the season, etc. That’s probably why we saw mostly repeating characters and why the few major actors appeared only in 1-2 episodes.

Ooh, there was a 1602 episode?

Very excited to see dials for them.
(Yours have been cool, too, Wilx!)

Normally, I wouldn't dial these characters, as I already have at least one version of each, but the idea for the dial came so naturally, I thought I might as well.



#207 Rock, Paper, Scissors
Real Name: Korg, Groot, Miek
Team: Underworld
Range: 5
Points: 100
Keywords: Underworld, Cosmic

6 11 18 3

6 11 18 3

6 10 17 3

6 11 18 3

6 11 18 3

6 10 17 3

6 11 18 3

6 11 18 3

6 10 17 3

KO KO KO KO

KO KO KO KO

KO KO KO KO

#208 Peter Quill
Team: Cosmic Energy
Range: 6
Points: 60
Keywords: Avengers, Celestial, Cosmic, Ruler, Teen

5 11 18 4

5 11 18 4

5 11 18 4

5 11 18 4

5 11 18 4

KO KO KO KO

KO KO KO KO

KO KO KO KO

KO KO KO KO

KO KO KO KO

KO KO KO KO

KO KO KO KO

Just a Confused Kid: Opposing characters modify attack +2 when using Mind Control against Peter Quill

Holey moley, I'm seeing 223 guests viewing this?

If you're new to the thread, welcome! I'm very verbose, but I hope my thoughts entertain.

Also, ummm... what brings you?

#209 Mar-Vell
Real Name: Wendy Lawson
Team: Avengers Initiative
Range: 5
Points: 50
Keywords: Avengers, Kree, Armor, Pilot, Scientist, Soldier

8 10 18 3

7 10 18 3

7 10 18 3

7 11 17 2

6 11 17 2

6 11 17 2

KO KO KO KO

KO KO KO KO

KO KO KO KO

KO KO KO KO

KO KO KO KO

KO KO KO KO

The Team's Pilot: Carry, Passenger: 4
And a Kree Pilot: When Wendy Lawson pilots a vehicle, it may also use her displayed Defense ability.