Ces't la Vie

Ya shiros look good but i dont play them much, and birds would eat a shiro huge minimum and gun gone fairly fast. Birds are not my style i am not sure how you guys play with those Glass jaws of dooommm but good for you for trying.

The Shiros are a lot like the Falcon Totem 'Mechs, powerful but limited. As Highdancer stated earlier, they are vulnerable to anything that can get into their minimum range.

A lot of HK units have the problem that when they do get a high AV, they can't dish out enough damage to take advantage. However, paired with Dragon's Fury, they are still incredibly dangerous. Dragon's Fury has some INSANE pieces dating back to the early game.

getting back to the Shiros, they are also quite vulnerable to artillery (as are most 'mechs) and can be heated up quite quickly when being made to dance. Try 2 Hadurs or Long Toms.

My favorite way to destroy a Shiro is a good old-fashioned Goshawk beatdown.
Alternatively, try the Pheonix Hawk with evade (I loves me some Evade).


Jaguars with Evade (or camo) and Hindering terrain work quite well, the hull-down modifier making them hard targets indeed. Couple that with the Enhanced Imaging ability, and these dirt cheap 'Mechs can tear armies to shreds. The icing on the cake is those THREE clear clicks of heat.

Which particular units to use is a matter of personal preference, but IMO overall CJF is remarkably well-equipped to deal with Shiros and HK in general.

That'd be for the same reason I mentioned HK having low damage values at high AVs; because for the most part it was/is true, but they're getting away from it.

The HK MCIV, which is, in fact, a stable piece, is just as 'glass jawed' as the Loki, MCIV and Vulture IV are for CJF. That is, not very. Just like you pointed out I was wrong about the HK MCIV, I can point out the recent vintage CJF mechs that don't have a glass anything. Black Rose? Glass jaw. Vulture? Loki? Still capable of beating you like a redheaded stepchild down the dial.

Highdancer is right. The days of 18 defences and 4 clicks of usefulness seem to be gone. I don't mind trading that for Evade and insane movement values. Now if only they'd make boosters again, we can see if the trend continues. Although, the Vixen still has a glass jaw. If you can beat through his Evade-inflated defence, he goes down fast. Still a great blaocker and first strike unit, though.

Okay, I've been considering and I think it's time for me to pretend I have more influence than I actually do and wax poetical about tactics again. Y'all can thank 4 Lom for this. :)

Conservation of forces

Let's run a 'thought experiment' just quick. This is theorycrafting at it's best, so bear with me.

Force A has two units that do 5 damage and take 10 to kill. These units are worth 100 points. It also has a 300 point unit that does 5 damage and takes 15 to kill. Force B is identical in every fashion. Oddly, you'll note that this more or less corresponds to two tank drops and a mech. ;)

Force A deploys. Force B concentrates on the mech. All three units hit the 300 point unit, doing 15 clicks and destroying it. Force A then attacks one of Force Bs 100 point units, killing it. Force B then destroys a 100 point unit, Force A does 5 to the 300 point unit and then the last Force A unit is destroyed. Force A lost 500 points, Force B lost 100 points and 5 clicks of damage.

Don't take this one too literally: there're all sorts of rules I'm ignoring and stat degredation and misses and so on and so on. The core concept is simple: a complete kill and concentration of fire will get you ahead in the points game and keep you there.

So. Here you are with your force. You've got a big banger, a tank drop and then your usual gang of idiots. We'll assume something around a 600 point army, for convenience's sake. You know your opponent wants to kill your big unit and you know you want to kill his big unit. So, what do you do?

Your primary objective is to concentrate your fire and disperse his fire. You can do this with several methods in MW: heat, tokens and position.

Heat is obvious. Mechs don't like getting hot. Ammo pops, shutdowns and overloads are absolutely game changing. Tokens: double tokened units take a turn off, end of story. Position: out of range, based or, in the case of tank drops, out of transport (which often gets back to tokens as well).

So, here you are, one tank drop, one mech, collection of small fry. Same with your opponent. You want to hit his mech with your drop and your mech and you don't want him to do the same. How do you break things up?

Bait. As an example, a Saxon with an infantry (dare we even suggest a Fenrir) runs forward outside of the mech's normal range but inside his assault range. This works best if your opponent has a click or two of heat and a token to boot. Does he assault your Saxon, possibly gaining 40 to 50 points, but adding two clicks of heat to his critical mech? Does he throw his tank drop at it and lose access to it for a turn or two? Does he let it scoot by into his rear arc or against his support? Make sure all his options reduce his ability to concentrate his fire against you. Is it worth losing 44 points just to get a tank drop out of the way for a turn or two? If you set up properly, yes, yes it is.

Base. Hey, CJF's got a lot of nasty infantry. They like killing mechs. Let 'em try. Base up his mech and put your mech into assault range. He can't assault while based. If he kills the infantry, he's probably going to have to use his mech; that's tokens and maybe heat. And with the CJF infantry, lots of times a single mech hit can't kill it; maybe you draw in some of his support or even, you can hope, his tank drop. Maybe he's arrogant, let's the infantry live. Calculate the odds of a normal hit, then calculate the odds of a capture. Sure, it's not likely to happen, but he's letting you try it. Infantry can kill a mech (for the purposes of your fight) in one roll. Crit happens man. ;) Maybe you stick another infantry on him. Put it in his rear, make him spin, make him decide between exposing his rear to your mech or exposing his rear to a formation capture. If you're running Saxons or Shamashes or Kites, if you're basing, you should probably be ramming. It's not like they've got lots of life anyway, you know?

So there you go. Enjoy.

I will certainly thank 4-LOM for that rundown. "Thank you 4_LOM for inciting Highdancer to share strategic and tactical insights that will allow me to hand your snakes their first defeat at the ends of my green birds talons. No more free PHIs for you";).

Cheers,:)

Goreb

Here is another army that I have had much success with.

5x :^^: CJF Jaguar 490
5x Focht Grad L Pilot 50
3x lock-on targeting 15
1x fluid gun-corrosive 23
1x camo 2
CJF FP f-018 (formation)
total: 600

Although it has ZERO support, The Jags are fast enough to run from big threats, get an insane defence in Hindering, and don't have to break from infantry. With a 24 in run, and three clear clicks of heat, Jags can base opponents artillery with a run, and then smack 'em twice before having to vent. It's a rare piece of Artillery that's any use at all after 6 clicks. The TSEMP on primary means you can "push" their artillery as well. The FP makes things very dangerous indeed, able to bring a brutal firing or close-combat formation just about anywhere on the board. The three lock-on targeting gear make the formation that much more dangerous, and the Fluid gun scares the pants off anyone running an armored mech. Camo is filler, but what great filler it is.

PC jungle works fantastically with this army, as do tornado and dust storm.

I'm using this army again on Saturday, And I will post my glorious victory or ignominous defeat here in this forum. Of course, you can't beat the dice, so I consider one or two victories a tournament proof of concept.

Glad i could get this thread stired up as the HK one is dead :). I counter your saxon with fenrirs with my saxon with fenrirs :) (we are assumeing identical forces). So i drop my fenrirs and hit your saxon. failing that i back up or sideways.

:) he he goreb bust bring your cats to fight me.... cause the day i get beaten by turkeys is the day hell freezes over! Thats right you all heard me!!

I'm not going to get into a 'I do this, I do that' sort of thing, because it's pointless, but I do want to point out that you slipping backwards or sideways is, on average, a CJF win. Better heat dials and vent means a CJF mech tends to recover from heat better.

Today is the day. I'm running the Jaguar army with a few tweaks cause it's 750 pts not 600 as I originally thought. Changing the Focht Grads to Star Commanders, switching the gears with 3 evades a fluid gun-corrosive and radical heat sinks. makes 749 with the FP. Dust Storm, Jungle, and Desert Wasteland are the PCs I'll be running. Anything to shorten ranges and build heat in the opponents.

Im glad to see that i was busy with exams the snake incursion was properly dealt with! :D Here is my sollutoin for those dam dracs!:

-Seka's pride + Pliskin + decoy
-Hue:^^^:
-R10:^^:
-Yasha:^^:
-3*Grey Death BA:^^^:
-3*Gnome BA:^^:

Before anyone has a go at the Grey BAs, the players in my area realy dont like them because they have a bad history against them, so its ther more for the pshy effect. Otherwise feel free to tear into it!:)

Ubershep- I thought Falcon only got Grey death Scout armor. Or are those the old merc ones?

I try never to use centerpiece armies. I guess I just don't like the way they play.

SPD is fine for getting that RHDM into you force although I usually prefer the more scrubby path of using one of our one fine heavies, but that is just me. Perhaps my not owning Seka also has something to do with this:rolleyes: . You can never go wrong with a Huey drop and a Yasha is a good clean up unit if a little fragile. The GDSBAs I can see since they can infiltrate up to 18" which puts them in decent basing position early in the game. The Gnomes, on the other hand, I would swap out for faster units such as CBAs (the Vanguard version) or else they will get left behind. Yes they are tough and dish good damage, but they are jsut too slow without a transport (such as a Cardinal) Well there is my two cents.

Cheers,:)

Goreb

Sorry about that, the Grey Deaths are the Scout Armors from falcons prey. I agree
on the clans instead of the gnomes but sadly i only have one of them:disappoin

They are both rare (I only have four) and great units with huge range and late dial IT (great for those capture attempts).

In other news.......I am "in training" for the inevitable snake stomping :knockedou that I will mete out on 4-LOM and as such, played a couple of games against Kiezer Soze over the weekend. Here is how things went down.

House Rules
First of all keep in mind that we play with the following 'house rules':

1. 36” x 36” board w/3 pieces of terrain per player, Planetary Conditions optional, 60 minute match, 1050 point army (6 orders)

2. Artillery - Only two artillery vehicles or 4 artillery infantry are allowed in any army build. Artillery CANNOT hit VTOLs at ‘cruising’ level (there are dedicated AA units for this purpose).

3. Pre-AoD Common Mechs - Pre-AoD (no pilot/gear slots in their heat dials) ‘mechs may add a pilot and gear or two gear CECs just like post-AoD ‘mechs

4. Pre-AoD Les/Uniques - Pre-AoD (no pilot/gear slots in their heat dials) Les/Uniques may add either a pilot and gear or two gear CECs just like post-AoD ‘mechs. The pilots available have the following restrictions:
>Pilots must be faction pure or generic (i.e. no Gunslingers). In the case of ‘faction pure, named’ pilots their cost for piloting a pre-AoD LE/Unique is the same as if they were piloting their preferred ‘mech. Pilots used in this way do not enjoy their ‘special abilities’. The higher point cost is the premium for piloting the pre-AoD LE/Unique
>In the case of ‘generic’ pilots they must pay a premium in addition to their regular costs:
>Light – 10pts
>Medium – 15pts
>Heavy – 20pts
>Assault – 25pts

5. Full House Absorption - Faction symbols of parent and splinter factions are considered the same for computing Faction Pride costs and pilot assignments (i.e. ‘Bounty Hunter’ can pilot a ‘Shiro’ etc..)

6. Jumping on Assault Orders - Units equipped with Jump Jets may jump over Blocking terrain when making Ranged Assault Orders

7. Rooftops - If designated as Elevated terrain, units may be deployed on top of Blocking terrain either via Jump Jets or transport VTOLs. Units on Elevated terrain get a +1 DV bonus.

The Enemy
Kiezer brought the following army to the table

HS "Unsterblich" Atlas w/2 2 1 Shizuka
HS Stalking Spider w/Lowell Steiner & Pulse
SH J37 w/ 2x SH TTLs
SH J37 w/ SH Regulator
SH Zahn w/ HS Carnivore
HS Savior Repair Vehicle
SH Sniper artillery
HS Re-roll Faction Pride

Obviously this army was centered around Unsterblich which IMHO is THE nastiest of the second generation Atlases (with the possible exception of Solitude or Hammerfall). The Spider was nothing to sneer at and the drops were nasty (especially the Carnivore and the TTLs). Kiezer played this army for both battles.

Battle 1
For our first match I bid the following forces:
"Shone Roshak" Shrike w/ Malvina Hazen & ER Ammo
Goshawk w/ Lowell Steiner & IT
Goshawk w/ Tillmann Petersen & PPC Capacitor
2xHadur FSV :^^^:
Saxon APC w/ Fenrir BA
3x CBA :^^:
1xTrackbike
Sylph BA
True Grit

This force is nominally built around the Shrike since opposing players are not used to seeing a Falcon 'mech RAO up to 21" dishing out 5 ArP damage with 11AV. The real hitters however, are the Goshawks with their JJ range and built in MDFA. The Hadurs would be in formation with the Trackbike providing accurate and pushable pogging. The CBAs would be in formation with the Saxon and would rush to get into basing/dropping position. The Sylph does what it does best, base artillery on turn two:devious: .

The terrain was laid with a large piece of water in the middle with a B3 blocking the Steiner DZ as well as a few other water and blocking pieces (no hindering). I won first move and I performed what I like to call a "full court press". This will come as no surprise to fellow Falcon trothkin and consists of rushing the majority of your forces as far as possible as fast as possible. With the B3 blocking the enemy DZ, and hence any chance of RAO reprisal from Unsterblich, I ran all three 'mechs into the central lake while bringing up the rest of my forces in support. Kiezer reponded by bringing Unsterblich and friends around the side of the B3 into another piecs of water off to the side.

After some more posturing which saw my Sylph base his Sniper, Unsterblich got off a lucky shot on the Shrike drawing first blood. However, now the Atlas was in MDFA range of the Goshawks and while I knew that they were running hot, this was my chance to render the hundred-ton-titan down to a more managable level. For the first time in my MW history I failed not one but TWO MDFA rolls :confused: . To add insult to injury the one Goshawk shut down giving the Steiner commander a pair of juicy targets within easy range of most of his units. Needless to say that the Goshawks died over the next two turns.

After the death of the Goshawks the match went downhill with my forces not able to bring the necessary firepower to bear. I was forced to concede the match shortly thereafter.

Battle 2
For the second match I bid the following forces:
Loki w/ Valerius Deodatus & IT
Loki w/ Del Pinnick & IT
Vixen w/ Mila Mazur & Decoy
Cardinal VTOL w/ 2x TTLs
Cardinal VTOL w/ 2x TTLs (yes I ran two sets of them:devious: )
3xTrackbikes
Sylph BA
True Grit

Having never run a dual-Loki force I was eager to bring the two beat-sticks out on to the field. The strategy woud be to form a conga-line with the 'mechs with the Vixen in front forcing any would be enemies to hit a 24 (25 on RAO) twice and likely ending in range of dual RAOs from the Lokis. Each of the Cardinals would deploy on either flank and shower the enemy with pogs while the Trackbikes and Sylph would go basing.

Terrain was similar to the first match with the exception that I had more of an eye to laying blocking terrain at places advantageous to the deployment of my TTLs. Having again won initiative, I ran my 'conga line' up into the central lake while bringing up the Sylph and one of the Cardinals at the same time. Fearing the basing power of the Sylph, the SH Sniper moved to the other side of the DZ while Unsterblich and the Stalking Spider took up positions behind a B3 ready to round the corners. The enemy Zahn and one of the J37s also moved up behind the B3.

I popped my first Cardinal the next round and laid pogs on both mechs and one in between the two transports (gotta love dual pogging infantillery :squareeye ). With his Sniper now out of basing range of the Sylph I chose to instead base his Zahn. With pogs on the ground he responded by moving both 'mechs back, but had to take the damage to his transports in order to leave them in drop position. I also moved my conga line up into another piece of water (within RAO range of half his DZ) and brought up the Trackbikes and the other Cardinal. At this moment Kiezer had to choose between CCAOing the Vixen with Unsterblich or moving the Atlas back toward the DZ and out of range of the first pair of TTLs. He chose the latter option. He also popped his ither J37 with the SH TTLs and the battle of infantillery began.

The critical moment arrived and even though they were 'warm', both Lokis RAOd Unsterblich reducing the pristine 'mech to a twisted scrap with a pair of dead-on Pulse blasts:devious: . Unfortunately both 'mechs shutdown, but slagging Unsterblich in a single round was well worth it. As well, both 'mechs were in water so I knew they would both be started up next round (lets hear it for great vent ratings). I also popped my second Cardinal not behind the blocking terrain as my opponent expected, but a few inches closer allowing me to pog virtually all of his forces. The enemy's TTL pogs landed to DEVASTATING effect wiping out my newly dropped TTLs in a single turn.

With Unsterblich gone the battle degenerated into a scrum in Kiezer's backyard which eventually claimed one of my Lokis. However, it was the Steiner forces that took the brunt of the attack and Keizer conceded defeat shortly thereafter.

Lessons Learned
1. Regarding the design of the first army the pimped out Shrike is a blast to play although the DV is a little low and the whole unit is a tad expensive. In the future I may swap out the Shrike for a Loki and more support. The dual Goshawks SHOULD have been great although I'm may reconsider my gearing choices in the future. The Hadurs are great pieces with my only complain being that their single pogs, while accurate, are fairly easy to get away from.

2. Regarding the second build, dual Lokis are GREAT FUN to play with the ability to dish HUGE damage. While I liked the 'conga line' approach, I would consider swapping one of them for a Vulture with Aiko & Decoy and swap Mila and Decoy (on the Vixen) for Graves/Vanek & APM. This would preserve the overall punch of the three 'mechs while spreading it out among three units instead of two. I probably wouldn't change much with the rest of build 2 as it performed fairly well in my opinion.

3. The 'full court press' strategy worked VERY well forcing the enemy to back up in the face of the advancing wave. This makes great advantage of Falcons superior mobility and minimizes the range advantage most other factions enjoy. The critical element here is the placement of a piece of blocking terrain to advance behind although the 'conga line' could work instead. Another important factor when utilizing this strategy is to be able to move most, if not all, of your units in a single turn so as to bring your entire force up at the same time thus allowing for the greatest tactical and support flexibility.

4. With less than stellar DVs the 'conga line' also worked very well forcing the enemy to have to RAO against a 25 w/ Decoy instead of the lower DVs of the Lokis.

5. TTLs carried by Cardinal are GREAT!! The thing to remember here is that you do not HAVE to deploy them behind blocking terrain. In both battles the 'full court press' meant that I had virtually all of my forces half way up the board by turn 2 giving my TTLs all the support they needed thus allowing them to drop closer to the enemy. Having 8 pogs to play with is great for forcing your enemy around the board.

6. SH and HS TTLs are EVIL and every bit as effective as the JF version trading ArP for 2 damage. Always base or kill these as soon as possible.

7. Ramming attacks are also very effective and sometimes unexpected. Not only do these attack ignore armor, Evade, Decoy etc.., it is a tactic that greatly extends the operational parameters of what some would consider an otherwise 'useless' unit that was only employed to carry troops.

Well there it is. Feel free to critique as you see fit and remember that any comments will go towards the inevitable defeat of 4-LOMs snakes under my jade talons;) , but I digest........

Cheers,:)

Goreb