Well, there ya go. Apparently I haven't played MK since Whirlwind, and know nothing. Come on Mrd! You know who you're talking to! I'm not saying I'm all that, but I know what I'm talking about. The only way I can deny your statement is from my firsthand experience to the contrary, all this year. What's more, I've played lots of sealed, and I also don't agree with you about the pulls, so there ya go. Or to phrase it another way, in my opinon you're wrong! LOL! If you don't get a nice unique, you'd better pull two decent mounts, because your army of DR nons is basically fodder versus any army with a solid unique or decent mounts or even worse - both!

As for what's wrong "right now," you're not following me. It's what's wrong over and over! The mistakes have flowed pretty freely for quite a while now. In the game, in the way they treat their envoys, in the lack of quality control both before and after manufacturing, in the gap between top tier players and game designers, in the rising costs for less playable figures. If there was any sign of this improving over the last 2 years, that would be one thing. The fact that it is either the same level of seriousness or worse does nothing to increase my faith in this company. The fact that there are plastic cards in the hands of players that have complete sentences replaced or one where the entire text of the card is wrong is a failure on the part of WK. I don't see any other way of putting it. Now I realize that one small stone isn’t going to kill me, but laying under a large pile of them is bad for one’s health. Over the course of the last 2 years, a lot of stones have been amassed.

So I’ll indulge you in your fantasy. You’re right. Nothing’s wrong with MK right now (where *is* the rolleyes smiley when you need it). I’m just tired of buying into a game and a company that cares so little about me, and so little about their game. If it works for you, great, but it doesn't work for me. And in case you didn't notice, it really irked me that you had the nerve to come right out and say that I know nothing about the game. I went 4-1 at the event at GenCon I played in. Sure, I asked KerriOSU some dumb questions from being rusty, but ask her or OrcMike if I know how to play the game. I'm not posting and saying that you know nothing about the game. I respect your skills. I'm posting and stating my opinion, which is contrary to yours. As far as I'm concerned you owe me an apology.

I think that's my biggest issue with the actual game itself is the distancing between uniques and nons.

After poring over the sorcery spoiler, it seems WK has tried to fix this issue to a degree, but whether or not this is true remains to be played out.

And to all the people who tell me that strong nons (a la A-gunner, E@A, Half-Troll Hacker, Nightstalker, Standard Bearer, Crystal Protector, Magestone Lord, Fighting Automaton, Utem Guardsman, Troll Artillerist, Light Lancer, Skeleton, Seething Knight, etc. etc. etc.) have no place in 2.0, I say "Why? What's the matter with a bunch of smaller figures teaming up to take down a big one?" Figures that have a chance that is - loading up an army full of dudes with 5 clicks and an 8 attack is not a recipe for success.

And to those who say it happens all the time, please direct us to those tourney-winning army builds, since I sure don't see ones like that posted often.

When did this game stop having anything to do with ARMIES? When did the game become shadowrun?

Anyway, there have been SOME solid nons, and more of them in this set, so hopefully the problem has been lessened.

I'm sitting here wondering why people simply can't disagree or express a personal opinion of the status of the game. An individual doesn't always have to give an analytical explanation or justification to their personal opinion. Even if they do give an explanation you don't fully agree with, it doesn't necessarily make their opinion wrong. Also, what may be a "legitimate" answer may not seem legitimate to others. People should accept it for what it is, a personal opinion.

If Dfazman (or others) are unhappy with MK and / or dissatisfied with the direction of the game, then I for one think that's unfortunate. I don't try to drill into his position and get him to expain himself. That's the same as Dfazman asking anyone who is still avid supporter of the game to explain exactly what it is that they like of the game. If you like it, then you like it....if you dislike it then you dislike it.

If I were a manager of WK (or any gaming company) and a guy like Dfazman said he was fed up with the game .... I would be concerned. It's not the cheerleaders WK needs to watch or pay attention to (they are already buying your product), it's the dissatisfied customers because they walk with their feet .... to a competitor.

Lets get over the "I'm right, you're wrong" mentality that these discussions sometime take and let people like Dfazman express his personal opinion about a game he used to enjoy. I for one find it sad that we would loose even a single player. At the end of the day that's what it's all about....maintaining the existing player base and bringing in new players (BTW, come look at the venues close to my area .... no new players, existing player base shrinking, venues no longer supporting the game, turn outs of 1-3 people ..... it's sad).

As always IMHO,
Steve

I disagree Steve, when someone states there are obvious flaws in the game, what's wrong with asking him or her what those flaws are? How else are you going to talk about the issue? If someone asked me what I liked and disliked about the game, I would be happy to tell them.

Mage Knight is NOT an army game.

It is a chase figure game.

Now it is a chase "combo" game.

It's redeeming quality right now is that there are lots of combos out there and more with each expansion. Thus obtaining a good combo is not that expensive.

If you want an army game, try WARMACHINE or 40K or WH Fantasy.

MK ain't it, cause collectable army games don't make sense. If you want a certain army (ie faction), why would you buy a game where for every $7 you spend you are sure to be disappointed with 3/4 of your purchase.

ArmyC - CMGs do make some sense, provided that the various factions are essentially balanced (so new players are equally likely to chose any of them), and there is an active local community which encuorages trading amongst its members.

Since MK is not selling at my FLGS, a new player is going to have to purchase more boosters to amass a faction than someone who picks up either the D&D or SW CMGs - since those have more active local players, and people who are trading off their spares or undesirables - or giving them to newbs. It actually reminds me of the MK scene from a couple years ago, actually. All it really needs is someone to run events. . . .

I think I've been pretty clear about what I like and don't like about the game and the company, complete with analytical justification.

It simply no longer matters to many people whether or not MK is a better game, a more balanced game, or more fun. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't, but that's really besides the point. What's done is done and probably can't be undone.

Exactly.

And I seem to recall that MK was at least partially an Army game in the beginning. There were plenty of armies with decent-sized non-formations even in small games.

I see no reason that had to change.

Sorry for collecting quote from many different persons. I am late to this thread.

zengoth
Yeah, that is Cyrill. I don't wannt to accuse someone. But lots of problems, like stupid tournament formats and a very strange and outright wrong tournament rulings started arround this time.

Vash&Knives
That is not the problem.
Some of us like to play REALLY competitive. But there are too many problems now to enjoy competitive play. Nobody has problems in casual play, because you can simply ignore the things you don't like. But the tournament scene is in no good state - and that is a big problem.

And if I send you two different cheese combos? Can you beat them with one army? What about three or four? We should try it in the different way. You send me your army, and I give you at least one "cheese combo" that you can't beat with your army.

mrdbeau
That is true - in a way. It was only possible, because Vithz with Inferno is a rock. When he faces a paper army, he will lose big time, regardless of the skill of the involved players. That doesn't mean that the army is bad or easy or something. It still takes skill to find a good solid rock and play it right. But there are so many rocks in this game, you can't have enought papers to cover them all.

That is a reason, why tournaments do no longer appeal to me. I know that every army, that I build, has so many blind spots. Even knowing those blind spots doesn't help If I cover this problem a new one will inevitable arise. It is simply a game of chance, whether my opponents will play something incompatible.



I think it is time to rehash my main thesis on Wizkids' strategy:
They don't want good players!
They do everything to appeal to the average customer. Thus, second player advantage is good, because it gives you the chance to win every other game. "Unbeatable" combos with defined counters are good. You will win a certain amount of games but you will inevitable lose when the other players react (and have to buy certain things to react). Rock, scissor, paper is the ultimate goal, because every player has a chance to win and is a happy customer. But they have to hide this simple principle behind complicated mechanisms and units because they have to sell.

An example: The recent success of stone watch towers is the perfect situation for WK. You need 4-6 different parts to use them and you have to buy the older 2.0 boosters to get them (or some ebay reseller has to). They give a random but significant advantage to one of two players, thus helping mediocre players to beat better players.



There comes even something thread-relevant in my post. Wizkids may listen to us - they are not stupid (I hope). But don't expect a reaction in your favour. The better you are the larger is the chance that you are not the main target of their activities. And because the better players have more complains (they are able to see more problems then the average), they feel even more ignored.

Okay, so... I'm seeing a trend here. If I hate the game and thinks it's dead I get the following priveleges:

1.) Free lifetime membership to the Order of the Lion. :)

2.) The write to post whatever #### I want and not have to justify it to anyone because everyone's entitled to an "opinion". Oh, except those who believe the game is fun the way it is.

Now I also think I've figured out what's wrong with this thread. I just realized how clueless I've been. Apparently, Second Turn Advantage wins you every match-up. At least that's Kikommander's opinion and I'd hate to attack someone's opinion. Wait, no I wouldn't :)
Rubbish. Not an opinion at all, just plain garbage. Does anyone know how many of the final world's matches actually lasted long enough for the second turn advantage to even matter? Not many. Doesn't anyone realize that the top player went 8 matches as the FIRST PLAYER!? Doesn't seem like it...

The point is folks, if you come here spouting #### about the game being dead YOU WILL BE CALLED TO THE MAT! You will be asked to explain yourself. I don't want a bunch of disgruntled players giving newbs and cry-babies excuses as to why they can't win games.

"It's the second player advantage." Boo hoo hoo
"It's the cheesy combos."

Never once stopping to think you weren't cut out to play the game in the first place.

I'm sorry if I pissed anyone off. But that's my opinion and from what the opposing side is saying I have the right to express it without retribution. OH, and I also happen to be right! Fact is a beautiful thing. Overrides opinion every time.

THE SENTINEL [ag]

I accept your apology

The problem I have about someone asking me to explain my opinion is because they don't give a rats BuTtOx what my explanation is they will read my explanation with an english dictionary in hand just to look for "contridictions" which is the popular method nowa days and earth to all IT DOES NOT WORK.

another matter:If there is a wide spread opinion about a matter then there has to be some truth in the matter.

you telling me that a newbie didn't loose because someone else rap.ed him with S.M?

man, you go to canada to get tanked for a few days,
and look what happens to your thread...

... looks like it's time to kick ### and take names...
That was rude and uncalled for.
One more outburst like that and I'll be forced to ##### and moan, just like you.
First off, no, you are not sorry.
Secondly, you do not have the right to say whatever you want without retribution.
If you don't want retribution, keep it to yourself.
Once again, it is your opinion that you are right.
Please keep in mind arrogance only promotes ignorance.

The above would have been filled with rolly eyes smilies and winking smiles, but I was too lazy to search for the shift key or move the mouse over while I was typing.

Fact is a beautiful thing, and it's a fact that witty responses prove nothing.

Hence what this post as well as yours have proven thus far.
(that was me saying the above is ranting meaning nothing.
mods, please no warning points.)

:: prays ::

Allow me to evolve into a more thoughtful respondee-

-----------------------------------------

Now that thats over with, here are the FACTS:

1. STA does not win every game.

2. MK has lost players due to 2.0.

3. Wizkids, much like everything in existence, is not perfect.

4. Players need a reason to play a game. (Henceforth known as "play value")

5. If a player does not see play value in a game, they will cease playing it.

6. Witty comments provide nothing but jest or provocation, therebye valueless and obsolete to proving a point. (these comments are unneeded)

8. What happened to 7?

9. We are ALL guilty of getting off topic, so we all share in the blame for the unbecoming of on-topic threads. The reason...

10. No one is innocent.

-----------------------------------------

It is the judgement of this court that our questions will remain unanswered, due to the fact that this is an imperfect world.

Let's all just try and take a step back and relax.
Too many people are getting their feathers ruffled over some opinions posted.

Keep it civil.

Huh, what was that?

I thought, I got mine for beein a good stategist. (-:
I play every week and thus I can recognise certain things. My thesis is not new, I guess I can find very old threads with more prove. But it may be, that I posted it in a closed or in the German forum. I am not sure.

[quote]Apparently, Second Turn Advantage wins you every match-up. At least that's Kikommander's opinion and I'd hate to attack someone's opinion.[quote]

If you don't see the 2nd player advantage, I cannot help you, but I do not doubt it exists.

sentinel007, there are lots of things that hinder the efficiency of strategy in favour of randomness. It is a trend that became quite apparent with 2.0.
Can you explain, how this might serve the better players?

sentiel, that post was very rude and uncalled for. You want to disagree, that's fine. But be respectful. If you want an example on the right way of voicing an opposing view, scroll back to medbeau's posts. (And if you've ever seen some of the rows we've gotten into in the past, you know I'm making a statement with that.)

First, I don't thiink I've seen anyone complain that they absolutley cannot beat the second player. What I have seen are tons of posts from players who get frustrated at loosing to that last second dash for tokens.

Second, they are getting backed up by facts. You can't just say it's not a fact and it comes true. Tons of people have voiced displeasure over the second player advantage. Are you to say that they are all mistaken in their feelings? Because you say so?

"Never once stopping to think you weren't cut out to play the game in the first place."
Now there's a good way to foster the playing base. Drive more people away from this game. I'm sure we have more than enough players anyways.