I can't stand the Ultimate line. Seems like dumbed down stories to me. they try to cram 30 years of history into an abridged 3 month run. It just falls flat for me, but I am a long time fan, so I never was the target for those books.

Back on original topic... worst hero ever....

Superman

He started out decent, but the DC universe as a whole increses everyones power level to insane amounts. No one more than him. He runs faster than teh flash, does better under water than Aquaman, is the strongest, has heat and cold beams in essence, etc... he is just too good at everything, so what is ever really a challenge for him?

Stories are boring when nothing is really a threat for him. Even with Kryptonite (ie... lame plot device to overcome this blaring narrative problem they realized they had). he isn't a hero, he is a bully. He can split the earth in two, but he stops bank robbers with tommy guns for years. Lame lame lame.

Now many will jump up and say "But he isn't that powerful anymore!", or "DC doesn't have people that powerful after the Crsis" or "After Kingdom Come!". But all these are lame ass story arcs that were only needed because the power scale WAS so inflated in that universe. and one wasn't enough to fix it, they have had multiple major storylines that lowered Clarks power levels... and still... lame...

Wow, I seem to have touched a nerve. A couple points, one, and what I feel is the most important point, is that I never criticized them. I was asked for my opinion, and I gave my opinion. I was stating why I did not like them, I was never trying to convince anyone else they should not like them. B, if you do not like a character with 30 years of back story, then do not pick up a book with 600+ issues behind it. Personally I do not feel that I can not enjoy reading something about Superman because I do not have every single issue ever printed about him. Finally, and try not take offense at this, but you seem to have gotten a little worked up at this, prehaps that is your style, I do not know, maybe you should try something relaxing, like yoga.

You would sing a different tune if you had to work his job for even one day, believe me.

where in the Ultimates storyline did Hulk have Banners intelligence?

I like Nightwing however my favorite Robin is Tim Drake. Greyson may have started it all but Tim is just the best mainly because he's like a mini-Batman (even though he doesn't want the mantle at all). I also like the chemistry between him and Greyson (who wouldn't want a brother with mad skills). Jason Todd is just a little cocky ass. He deserved that crowbar beating

Believe me, baby, that IS my style.

(And the biggest nerve hit was actually the X-Men thing.)

Honestly, it just happens so often on these boards that people bash the Ultimates because they "throw continuity out the window" or "try to cram 30 years into 3 months". While I agree with you that you CAN read Superman without having knowledge of his entire history, I find it hard to truly enjoy it (assuming the character is the same character; with Supes it MAY be a bit easier since they've retconned so much).

Ultimates isn't aimed at people who are long-time diehard comic book fans. I mean, I know a bunch of long-time diehard comic book fans who pick up the Ultimates and Ultimate Spidey (and, recently, Ultimate F4). However, this isn't their aim. Their aim is getting more people into the comic books.

And, just out of curiosity, have you read through Ultimate F4? Granted, some of the storylines were weak (like ones that focus on established chars, such as Neg Zone and Doom), but for two straight storylines after Neg Zone they introduced to us whole new villains (something not seen often enough in the Ultimate universe, since you always get people saying "That character isn't as cool in the normal universe").

The whole general approach to the Ultimate universe as "obviously being for me" from longtime comic book fans has always seemed odd, as if people didn't realize that they blatantly were NOT the demographic. I mean, in main continuity, they wouldn't spit in your face like bring back guaranteed dead characters (like Bucky or Jason Todd [I mean, oops]), but in the Ultimate universe they can work more with these characters that were previouisly taken out a little before their time (or, if you compare the ages of the Buckys, a LOT before their time).

(Who needs yoga when you can rant on the boards?)

@Stu: Would that tune be, by chance, "I'm coocoo for cocoa puffs!" (I'm guessing that, after the stress involved in his job, it might be more along the lines of "I'm coocoo for cocaine!")

@Dumm: In the Ultimate Hulk vs. Wolverine miniseries, they've revealed that SOMETIMES Hulk keeps his intelligence, if I remember correctly. Usually not, though, from all the transformations you've seen. (They at least say that there is a grey hulk and a green one, and the end of number two clinches the fact that Hulk has kept some of Bruce's intelligence, at least.)

I think tomany Poeple Over Estimate What Superman is capable of and are drawing frow different time peroods.

Superman is not Faster Than the Flash. At least not on Ground anyway. The Flash can Break Dementional walls Unaided ( I think he did it in the JLA/ Crime Syndacate crossover) Superman can Run Fast sure, but for any of you who know thats almost the least of what the Flash Does, I couldnt list them here is I wanted as most of them only make sense if you just dont think about it.

Of Course hes Better than Aquaman Underwater its Aquaman!!!

Superman isnt even the most powerful person on the JLA, thats the Martian, He has even more random powers than Superman.

Superman is The Anchor to the Team where is is capable of filing in for others in a cluch, because hes Well rounded. Most of the Things Superman Spends his time dealing with are at (or above) his power lvl. As for Being a bully, if yoiu are dumb enough to Rob a Bank in Metropolis you dont deserve to reproduce anymore, cause there is something wrong with you.

I accually Think Flash the The Martian are pretty much untouched by the Sapposed Power weakening after 1985, I mean the Flash still does most of the Same things and the Martain rarely gets involved. Man MM is so horribly writen in Comics to make the big 3 look good its stupid. Like how do you sneak up on the Worlds Most Powerful Telepath, and then Beat up a guy who can Reflexivly Turn Intangable???

I think this would be best explained by an example:

My girlfriend's favorite movie EVER is X-Men. The movie sparked her interest in the main characters to such an extent that she went out, completely unsupervised, and spent $40 on that month's comic books featuring the X-Men.

Needless to say, she was completely lost. None of the stories intertwined, every third sentence of dialogue referenced something that had happened months or years previous, and the books were full of characters that she couldn't recognize. She was lost and frustrated because she had no background in this impenetrable web of continuity, yet she was very interested in learning more.

I tried to explain things the best I could, my background in comics being fairly extensive up until about 3 years before this, when just ran out of time for the books. We managed to piece together a loose continuity from what I remembered, and what was in the comics that she had. Frankly, it wasn't worth the effort, and she gave up after a few months.

Then we found the Ultimate series. The chance for her to start over from the begining with the same characters that were in the comics that she had bought earlier was perfect. Now, she's been there from the beginning. She's read every line printed for Cyclops and Storm. She knows what's going on, and she loves it.

The restart in continuity won a new customer for Marvel. It kick started a relationship with a new market that wouldn't have been available or maintainable otherwise. The Ultimate line is good marketing, and a refreshing change from the over-convoluted Marvel U. How many backstories to Wolvie have, now?

Reinventing characters is crucial to their survival as cultural Icons. Captain America, the old fogie with no personality in the cannon Marvel U, is cool now, to me at least. Nick Fury actually acts and talks like a real person. Super-People get into fights, and people actually DIE. I don't see how any of this is a blight on the world of comics.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. :)

I'm not going to agree to that!

Oh, wait, I agree with you.

But not on that. Errr, never mind.

You see wrong, at least if you use exploit with the common negative connotation.

It is certainly another way to promote their characters, but how is that different from any Earth 616 book plastering Wolverine and Spider-Man on the cover. I see New Avengers as exploiting those character far more than alternate universe stories.

Completely true. But the 40 year old collectors (not a stereotype, but the length of time most popular Marvel characters have been around) are not the target of the Ultimate Universe.

They did. Those characters are usually unpopular, or people demand to see them interact in the Earth 616 universe.

So?

The main problem: what you (I assume a mature comic book reader from days of yore) see as "edgy" I see as "realistic" and "modern."

The 60s are over. The Comics Code Authority is dead. Issues you couldn't talk about, things you couldn't show, topics you couldn't broach are now regular occurences in TV and movies and music. Why shouldn't comics be allowed to keep up? Because it isn't what you grew up with? Well that's why there are new comics about this, rather than de-aging Spider-Man so he can be in high school again.

Or (a worse alternative) releasing "The Previously Untold Stories of Spider-Man" and saying "Hey reader, all this stuff happened back in the 60s, but we couldn't tell you about it then." Would you prefer useless retcons?

This just reeks of someone longing for "the good ole days."


I know this is your opinion, and you are welcome to it, but you're looking for things that aren't there in a comic line that isn't aimed at you. That still hardly makes all Ultimate universe heroes "The worst superhero ever made."

ohhh yeaaaa, but thats after he saw that guru dude. But in the ultimate Avengers he never really expressed any intelligence except how he said he was gonna give Betty Ross the nasty nasty

Ok first of All I am 20 years old, And I hate the Edgy feel of Comics as it just seems they are reaching by puting in things that just seem out of place. Somethings fit, but most dont.
SuperBoy Punching Panthas Head off fit into the tide of the Action well and wasnt that bad.

Black Adam poking Pysco Pirates Head off on the Other hand seemed unneeded, but then again thats why hes not a hero.

When Wolverine gets up and says " I think I want to Kill some Ninjas today" and then commenses to go out side and Wade through Ninjas for hours, it just seems weird.

Ultimates isnt Inheirently Bad I think they could put alittle more effort into it, it seems kinda half Assed Some Of the Heroes changes are welcome, Ultimates Namor is just a more powerful and Unpredictable 616 Namor. Cap A is Cap when America Is more Agressive, and thus so should Cap. I Do feel the went a little to hard on Pym though, and the power Scale seems to be sorta off. I mean Ultimates Collosus was beating up Ultimates Thor.

That's what makes Batman the best, he's like a kindergartner playing with pro athletes and being one of the best at it. Despite the fact that he has no superpowers, he's risen to become Superman's rival when it comes to who's the best in DCU. If Batman had superpowers, he'd have to be called something else...Supreme Ruler of the Universe.

See JLA: Liberty and Justice and JLA: Tower of Babel and you can see how Batman could quite easily negate MM's abilities

Batman has trained with Ninjas and Super Scientist so he might know some crazy mind Shieldign tech.

I read TOB its cute, but there are some Problems. As some Of batmans Plans seemed kinda wreckless. I mean What If Superman liked his uncontrolable powers and started Killing people. Or What if Kyle unfocused WP just went Crazy. The WW and Flash Plan were quite Good, Plastic Man on Ice is just classic.

I dont even Remember how he got the Nanites On the MM, Although I remember being Mad about it.

can u send me that list, how he can beat other super hero's