Someone mentioned making Medics take a click of damage when using Support. I like that idea. All you have to do is declare that they have a yellow circle instead of a square for their support power. In other WK games, a circle instead of a square means you take a click of damage when you use that power. That would go a LONG way to removing drawn-out fights where you run to the medic to heal.

I agree with this. Some posters said that removing taxiing and medics would slow down the game but I always thought having them slowed down the game. Move forward, take, damage, retreat, heal, lather, rinse ,repeat. I've always thought the game went much quicker without taxis and medics.

As a side issue on taxis, it never made much sense to me to base it on flying. Wouldn't superstrength have made more sense? Why can Wasp carry Hercules but not the other way around?

Chess is the only minature game that does not have cheese.

It's kind of funny but I stopped playing "normal" chess because I always thought the Queen detracted from the overall play of the game. I much prefer Shogi or Chinese Chess (Xiangqi) for a good game. I never thought of the Queen as cheesy though; it just makes the game less interesting IMO.

jolt

I feel weird for saying this but thanks Jon for the response post. It cleared up some issues and made a lot of us feel that someone was listening. The point I was trying to get at is: if you're willing to go back and fix or redo some figs, (Spiderman) why not go back and fix other figs too? (Thanos)
Funny how yourself and many others make mention of possibly having FL 10-15 pts. more. I was at the Canadian Nationals for MTG last summer and sent an email to WizKidz saying that same thing. That was almost a year ago. Unfortunately at the nationals, I had my entire collection of HC figs stolen and several months later started recollecting. If that doesn't show dedication to this game, I don't know what does. My first fig when I started was Thanos and when I started recollecting, he was also the first fig that I bought. I will play different variations of strategies. But when I go to a tournament, I play it like a tournament, "To Win."

p.s. Pontifex, you rule bro.

B]I highly doubt that anyone is winning any IC tourneys consistently without Firelord against decent comptetition packing Firelords. End rant. Please own up to your mistakes WK. Again sorry I just couldn't be called lazy for wanting to be competitive.[/b]


im sorry but i have played and won quite a few tourneys without a firelord. now i admet i did use one at first but not the way many others used him i only used him as a taxie for my claw, hello 10 movement to cary around a claw with 10 range now this was the rooky firelord just an fyi but i quickly replaced him with a L.E. anthony tooms err spelling and a doombot and i have been doing a lot better since i got firelord out of the team because what most people do is go for the most pawerfull pice on the bord first if you see a fire lord hit the #### out o it then take out there medics if you can get that dun you won the game. and about taxeing err spelling again i hope it dusnt get baned because i actualy use it like he sed to use it to get my team out in the action as soon as i can now i do have a medic on my team but i use her mostly for her shild abelity i only use her for healing if one of my main peces are about to die but she is allways right there next to him and the others right in the heat o batel i never leave her behind but any ways thats just me and my thoughts so do what you want but try and have fun

l8rz

Bakija wrote,

Your making an assumption that all new players will be palying against a Firelord of some level. This is not the case. My group of friends whom I first started playing with never got a Firelord in our boosters, or played anyone with a Firelord for a few months. Granted if a person who is brand new to the game plays for the first time in a tournament, then he/she will most likely play against Frielord. People are not always introduced to Hero Clix through tournaments. Sure, two friends who just started playing HC can play, and one can abuse Firelord to try and always win. But this is not a common ocurrance. Hero Clix is perfectly fine the way it is. There are some things that could be improved, but those are minimal changes at best.

Yes, it is good to see inovation and change, but do we really need Firelord fixed? Honestly, will an errata by Wizkids make a considerable difference in this game overall? I think it will not.

The problem with your argument is that the game does work well. It really does not need any major fixing. There are some slight things that would be nice to see changed, but they are not ruinning the game, or Wizkids ability to generate revenue from their HC product line. Not everyone will be happy with this product. And Wizkids is not trying to please everyone. They simply produce a product that appeals to a braod spectrum of consumers instead of selective targeting this game to the hardcore comic fans. Do you see my point? It is not a good business practice to cator to the needs, wants, and wishes of a select group who want the product they buy to be as such, when that product is sold to a diverse group of consumers. That is the reason that as long as HC is produced we will have people complaining about how there charater should/shouldn't be made, why they created this figure, and why these rules should be changed. I am simply going to accept HC as it is and enjoy it regardless of how I feel it should be designed, marketed, and played.

- Zeb

LOL, well, I finally read thi8s and there you have it. Now I know why the game is so off. When you have a game designer separating "fun" from "winning", you have someone who is not nearly evil enough to make a fun balanced game. The whole disturbing spin to me is as if its the players fault that they do things like fly back to heal heroes with medics instead of that there is a fault with the game design that encourages that. Its the game designers job to make the game feel like the comics. One point to give the designer a break-they didn't see things coming-fine. But then you have to question if the designer is really dealing with what people do with the game.

I also like the comment about "Firelord only being 10-15 points more." As if that wouldn't be a signifigantly huge change. For blue and red lord, that is more than a 10-15% increase. Any figure increased/decreased by that amount would change its role in the game.


Again, at least on the positive side, they seem to take into account the comments that people leave. But the interview highlights the fundamental problem with WK game design, I think. Games are played "for fun" as opposed "to win," when good games hold fun and balance, taking in all aspects (including "cheese") into account. I have to break out red infinity challenge spider man again to get him whooped, by any other hero with the same cost, so I can reflect on the amount of fun that it is.

If he thought medics were lame why did they also come out in DC and CT? Strange...... If Elektra can have 4 different figures why cant Firelord have a new figure and ban the first one? Ive also noticed at tournaments that people are just waiting for the other to make the first move into range so they can attack first. Want that first attack so bad or just not move ..... sounds fun right? Eventually games will just be two people not moving. Maybe people play with the Firelord team to avoid all the slow annoying positioning that lets a battle turn into a boring shuffle of figz. Its also in the hands of the right player a win against any team.

I sympathize with some of these most recent comments, but you have to give Leithusser a break. He came on board long after the rules were written, and he already pointed out that he doesn't have complete control over the game. He can't just change whatever he wants to try to make the game more fun and balanaced and fast-paced at the same time. Give him some time and hopefully the game will move a little further in the right direction with each new release. In the meantime, if you think it's fun to play with taxiis, Firelords, and Medics, go for it--just don't expect everybody to see it that way.

Those are good points - but what I find is funny is that anyone who isn't bowing down to JL's words in this thread gets called "whiner", but no one is calling JL a "whiner" for complaining about what we're saying in a free forum. I'm not saying he IS - in fact, I commend him for taking his precious time to respond here. However, it remains that he has come out and told us his opinion that he finds certain things and players "Lame" to use his own word.

Oh, and for the "If you don't like it, stop playing" crowd - keep telling us that, go ahead. But if one of the game designers can't accept some valid criticisms that he has suggested he could eventually address, then that person needs to reconsider his vocation. Game design isn't something to be done with polite and courteous folks in mind. I'm not a powergamer, but I do realize that failing to account for such types will KILL a game. Keep telling us to stop playing, and soon enough we will, and all of a sudden Wizkids will go broke because only the balance-minded minority (which I do fall into when I'm playing, just not when I'm evaluating the RULES of a game) can't spend enough to support the company.

So, to JL and all the rest I say this: If you can't deal with the munchkins, and write rules to reduce their impact, then perhaps chess might be your bag. I hate powergamers and munchkins too, but if I'm spending money on a game, why should I do the work of ensuring that the gamepieces are fairly balanced?

By the way, if you want to see a good example of a game that actually takes powergaming into account and takes advantage of it, check out the card game "Munchkin." It's a different type of game, true, but the fact remains that as long as there are prizes just for winning, then there will be people who will find ways to win, whether or not they are "lame".

OK, I'll give Mr. Leithusser a break for not being in on the original design, but some of his comments irk me in a way. First I'll say that I like long drawn out games as well as time limited games so taxi's and medics don't bother me at all. When they (especially medics) are on the board, I tend to change my strategy a bit. Does it always work? Of course not, but it's fun trying. It's fun to play the GAME! He talks about battle not being like that in the comics. Well, I've seen Rogue carry a bus in the comics, but she can't in the game. Same with Spidey (along with his spider sense which he didn't get until CT in the form of SS). If we want to go there, then in my opinion, if this game should more acurately represent the comics then the Hulk should be the most powerful, highest costed character in the game. He should have a movement of like 20/Charge (I've seen him leap for miles in the comics) an attack of astronomical proportions, and deal damage like there's no tomorrow. Oh yeah, his regen should start about 5 clicks down since he heals VERY FAST! Does it bother me that he is not costed and rated as such? Heck no! I take the game for what it is. A strategy and war game. With so many variations of characters and super powers, there is going to be imbalance somewhere along the line and it's not going to please everyone.

I have a lot of fun when playing this game. I take it seriously, but I have fun with it. I understand that a lot of self proclaimed comic book purists (no offense intended) will have problems with aspects and rules and characterizations in regards to this GAME. I just accept it for what it is and what it will become.

Dolemite199 wrote:
>> Your making an assumption that all new players will be palying against a Firelord of some level. This is not the case.>>

It is certainly a common occurance. I certainly accept that somewhere someone is playing this game and neither owns nor has ever played against Firelord, but I'd garner that he comes up more often than not, especially in public games (tournaments, in store events, whatever), if for no other reason that he is so good.

>>Hero Clix is perfectly fine the way it is. >>

Certainly a viewpoint, but not the one I hold.

>>There are some things that could be improved, but those are minimal changes at best.>>

Possibly. Or the game could use a major overhaul. Either way works.

>>Yes, it is good to see inovation and change, but do we really need Firelord fixed? Honestly, will an errata by Wizkids make a considerable difference in this game overall? I think it will not.>>

Yeah, see, but I think it would. Make a considerable difference. The competetive/public aspect of this game would open up considerably, as many currently fringe units would become useful. What I always ask is--how would it *hurt* the game to errata Firelord? Sure, sure, one could always say "but if they errata Firelord, then they'll errata everything! AAAAHHH!", which doesn't have to be the case. Given a situation where Firelord is given pinpoint, laser guided errata of some type (Increase in cost? Loss of RCE? Something.), and nothing else changes in the world, how would this be bad?

>>The problem with your argument is that the game does work well.>>

See, again, viewpoint that I don't hold. The game works pretty well, but has a few major problems that keep it from being a great game, and Firelord is one of them.

>>And Wizkids is not trying to please everyone. They simply produce a product that appeals to a braod spectrum of consumers instead of selective targeting this game to the hardcore comic fans. Do you see my point?>>

Of course I see your point--I just don't believe that such a point is a valid excuse for refusing to make a superior product.

>>It is not a good business practice to cator to the needs, wants, and wishes of a select group who want the product they buy to be as such, when that product is sold to a diverse group of consumers.>>

But it is good buisness practice to make a superior product. If catering to the needs and wishes of that select few result in a superior product for everyone, of course it is good buisness practice to cater to them, as everyone benefits, including the buisness in question.

>>I am simply going to accept HC as it is and enjoy it regardless of how I feel it should be designed, marketed, and played.>>

That is fantastic. It doesn't strike me, however, as unreasonable to expect that some folks will have a different point of view.

-Peter

First of all let me say that I am a fairly new poster and player/collector of Hero Clix. I was absolutely ecstatic that a hero minis game was developed. I was using home-grown rules of my own with action figures up until that point. Fun, but clunky and required a LOT more space. Like many of you out there, I, too am a long (and I mean LONG) time wargamer. Never much stuck with the RPG's but I am an admited GW disciple (much less since HeroClix IC hit the shelves).
As an aside, I am grateful to see the freedom you allow on these posts. I was actually banned from the GW site once for daring to criticize Gav Thorpe in a much much less savage way than many of the posters here have voiced their opinions. It is refreshing that you allow freedom of speech here and it should be commended (If your interested in my GW fracas PM me and I'll fill you in on all the sordid details. It ended well, but it is a GREAT story about the GW mentality).
Now then on to the good stuff. I liked the interview and thought it was informative especially for a newbie like me, however, even a newbie can see that Jon's comments on Firelord and taxiing were straight cop-outs. He didn't even TRY to tap dance around them. He may as well have shrugged and in his best David Spade said, "Don't know, Don't Care, buh bye"
It is obvious from the clamor that Firelord is a problem. I'm sorry, but there can't be that many "strategically impaired" people out there. It is a sad day when a Games Designer blames the people who play his game for the failures of said game (Very Games Workshopian of you--for shame). 'nuff said on FL.
Just from the Newbie's viewpoint, Taxiing and Medics should be at the very least banned from tournament play. Why? They almost FORCE a certain type of strategy. I'm sorry. WHO can pick up the Hulk or Juggernaut and then fly with them? Iron Man maybe? Thor? I think that this "tactic" is so overwhelmingly destabilizing to the game that it should be certainly banned in tournaments and I think from the rules altogether. As for Telekinesis, they should not be allowed to use it on friendlies. Only enemies. One final note, it is my opinion that medics are a unecessary part of this game. They are very much out of character. And certainly out of Comic Bookishness. Everybody knows that heroes are healed back at the Mansion/cave/hideout. Their inclusion forces players to play a certain way. You can try to argue this point, but how can you argue the points vs effectiveness logic? How? Taxiing heroes from the front line to the medic and back again while certainly non-heroic and absolutely not part of any Comic Book is the "tactic" du jour because, I'm sorry, it HAS TO BE. You, mr Games Designer, have made it so. Not to be rude, but do the math, sir. Look EVERY Game in the world from the most sophisticated wargames at the Pentagon to roushambeau are all based on an ALGORITHM. You figure out the Algorithm you figure out the game. Unfortuately, the data points to taxiing heroes to medics and back as the Algorithm of this game. Fix it. Take Taxiing and Medics out of the game and you will have fixed the ONLY thing wrong with this otherwise inspired game. As far as I can see this is the only really unbalancing aspect of it. Oh, and no more Elektra figures, please?

I've never had much problem with taxi/medics, though I've seen them often enough. In a recent 400 point match up in an unofficial tournament, I saw it in action, and how it failed miserably against a relatively simple strategy - LE Supes and Darkseid.

Bakija wrote,

I don't think it is an excuse. You cannot please everyone. Therefore, your product will always seem inferior to someone who has complaints about it regardless if it labled as a "superior" product. HC is a superior product compared to other comic book adaptation games. The probelm is the fact that some of the people who play HC believe it could be made better. This is a perfectly valid opinion. I have no issue with that. My point is that we, meaning players and collectors, should not be so judgemental and objective to this Product. HC is not defective, or a poorly made product. There are somethings we would liked changed or made to increase the superiority and playability of HC, but we are not the ones who make that decision. We can only voice our thoughts on this. Maybe Wizkids will listen and incorporate some of the consumers desires into future HC products. But as I said before, Marvel and DC get the final say so, not Wizkids, and not use. However, this is not the case with rules. Rules changes are a sperate issue from the HC product line and should definately be addressed.


I fully expect others to have a view point different than my own. An example is the electronic conversation you and I are in now.

P.S. I am enjoying this debate with you. Nice to chat with someone who is level headed

Zeb wrote:
>>HC is a superior product compared to other comic book adaptation games.>>

Certainly, although I can only think of RPG's off the top of my head--no, wait, there was, what was it? Overpower? I never even saw that game, so I can't say one way or the other.

>>The probelm is the fact that some of the people who play HC believe it could be made better. This is a perfectly valid opinion. I have no issue with that. My point is that we, meaning players and collectors, should not be so judgemental and objective to this Product.>>

Eh. I'm always pro-criticism. Criticism leads to discussion which leads to change. If we all were less judgemental, we still wouldn't know how those "air conditiner" spaces on the roofs worked :-)

>>HC is not defective, or a poorly made product.>>

I'd claim that Firelord is a large inherrent defect in the game, in that it seems unlikely that anyone planned on him being as powerful and game dominant as he is, but overall, I'd say you are correct.

>>There are somethings we would liked changed or made to increase the superiority and playability of HC, but we are not the ones who make that decision.>>

Of course we aren't the decision makers, but we are the consumers, and it is our responsibility to generate feedback, so as to provide the designers information with which to improve things. Letting them know what needs to be fixed (well, ya know, according to me :-) is key. Do I expect that my every whim will become law? Certainly not--I just figure it is in my best interest (and in the best interest of the game as a whole) to make my opinions known.

>>P.S. I am enjoying this debate with you. Nice to chat with someone who is level headed>>

Right on! If only everyone could be so sane :-)

Later on,
-Peter

Y'know, the really crazy things is that in spite of the #####/moan/whinge onslaught as a result of a really good interview ... this board has to rate as one of the most positive communities of gamers online, it's positively ... positive .. compared to some of the other general mailing lists for games I'm on!!

Brian