I think we were talking about the strength of hand to hand combat in weight class.

Frank is close. It was due to figuring out the rankings and standards for the TV TOC. I asked where would movie action heroes (such as Commando/Predator level Arnold) would rank if they were in the TV TOC. Mags was saying they would still be LWs. I later said Kung Lao and Kat should be LWs then. People said why would I give Kung Lao a LW ranking if I think he can beat two MWs at the same time. I later said I thought TV Sarah Connor would beat both Alex Mack and Tara at the same time too and think those movie action heroes would murder both Kung Lao and Kat as well as Connor from Angel and Bill at the same time too.

People doubted it and said Bill can take down various movie action heroes with a few punches. I said if Bill and someone like Commando/Predator level Arnold was fighting him in hand to hand, that Bill will most likely lose because Arnold can match his strength and Bill level punches won't be very effective nor will it have much lasting effect on him or much high tier action heroes. People called me out on it, I then had to bring up their track record of having a superhuman pain threshold and stamina and all the things these characters took that still failed to KO them to prove Bill's punches will have a hard time effectively taking these guys down.

I later brought up examples of them taking down mass amounts of enemies to further prove why I think various high tier action heroes would kill multiple TV LWs and MWs at the same time cause TV characters shown clear limits when trying to take down multiple enemies at the same time and from much smaller numbers too than what action heroes have shown capable of pulling off.

That's pretty much the sum of the whole conversation.

New one for TV

Observer (Fringe) - HW

A generic, maybe, but a strong one. Mind reading, teleportation and super speed (bullet catching fast) and a force gun. Maybe a really high end MW, but I have trouble seeing most MWs in TV take them, so I think a low end HW fits better.

Other characters from the show could be added (like Olivia and Peter), but they'd be LWs and the list had plenty of those.

For a moment I thought there was a "guy" at the end of Observer and thought it was some sort of joke. So looked him up and isn't this guy Joshua Jackson's self from another universe? Don't watch the show, but remember a funny scene when these two were matching each others words beat for beat. I'll add him to the HWs until some other Fringe watcher wants to chime in more.

Might as well add Josh and Anna to the LW category while I'm at it and start building up that list. Don't think there's enough crazy people here to vote for all 6 Game of Thrones LWs to make it into the TOC.

For the record OG, any changes you are making to your list (either with new additions or changes to what was there previously), Id again ask that you dont, but rather list those on a new post here on this thread, as that will make it easier for me to ammend the Main List on the first page.

Alright

Olivia Dunham (Fringe) - LW - She's a girl with a gun. Technically, has some very very low level TK and regen, but not nearly enough to get her out of the LW bracket. (If we take the season 2 version of her, she is also a crack shot from gaining the abilities of Fauxlivia, who is an Olympic gold metalist in shooting)

Peter Bishop (Fringe) - LW - Except very recently (like two episodes ago), he gained Observer powers, so at the moment, he is more of a MW/HW, but I don't think he'll keep the powers long.

No. They are future versions of humans who have destroyed their planet and come back through time to claim ours.

Well here's some additional names to the list. We can make the arguments once we actually start nominating them.

Cassie Blake (Secret Circle) - MW or HW depending who you talk you.

Quan Chi (Mortal Kombat Conquest) - HW according to Frank, haven't gotten far enough to his episodes to decide myself.

Scarface (1991 Land of the Lost) - HW depending where you'll put a T-Rex on the list since I think he'll be able to tear numerous SHWs from the last list a new one.

Myzarnian Cyborg (1991 Land of the Lost) - HW ditto as Scarface. Basically a T-Rex size rancor looking alien/cyborg from what I remember of the show.

Dean Winchester w/ rabbit foot (Supernatural) - HW or SHW depending who you talk to.

Ghost of Rick Murray (Degrassi) - SHW

Jena Thorne (Haunting on Sorority Row) - SHW

Ray Wise Devil (Reaper) - SHW

Rassilon (Doctor Who) - SHW All Dr. Who characters were taken from Frank's Cosmic Apocalypse nomination thread.

Sutekh (Doctor Who) - SHW

The Celestial Toymaker (Doctor Who) - SHW

The Devil from Reaper is more than SHW. He's cosmic level. Nothing was ever shown to hurt him.

Dean with the Rabbit's foot was ruled as being too short of an instance to be included.

There could always be the case where we have a shortage of SHWs.

Also for those who never seen Reaper, here's some of the things I remember about Ray.

- First episode was talking to Sam in his kitchen, then all of a sudden got teleported to an area with Sam's target. Night was changed into day.
- Said target, a demon didn't seem to notice either of them despite both standing in a empty street not too far away from him.
- Sam opens his bedroom door and walks into a ice rink.
- Disables zamboni and later kills zamboni driver by starting zamboni up again. Can disable other things too cause there's been various abilities he gave Sam that's been a disadvantage such as making it hard for Sam's body to properly grip onto anything like he's all covered in slippery slime.
- Can seem to make occurrences just happen. Like when Sam was disobeying him and a semi just came out of nowhere and nearly run him over. Very first episode also told Sam he's going to win that contest he signed up for.
- Seems to be one of those all knowing Devils as he appears to have detailed knowledge about everyone and everything on that show. Also pretty funny, he was showing off photos of himself at the Emmys with real life actors.
- Every episode he gives the main characters some sort of superpower/ability (or disability) to help them battle demons.
- Along with that, he also gives them vessels design specifically to take down whatever demon they were assigned to. I remember one episode the main characters defeated a demon with a sweater. It's also established the reason why he gives his bounty hunter these things is because he feels these demons are beneath him so he lets his minions deal with them instead. So in a team fight, it's very in character for him to give his teammates powers and abilities along with weapons designed specifically to take down the enemies.
- The show did made reference to Ray trying to take over Heaven and obviously did not succeed. So there's atleast one being in Reaper who was able to best him. Also according to the Reaper wiki, a hell demon referred to him as the second most powerful entity in the universe. We know who's number one.
- The wiki also says there are these special circles that he can't see or hear inside. However I remember that episode, and it was revealed at the end the Devil knew full well what they were planning from the start and allowed them to believe in their false hope. So those circles didn't actually work the way they were hoping.

Anyways those are from the few episodes I remember. Having said all that, I could see the problems with this guy if he was in the TOC.

I'd argue for Dean to be listed even if he only had it for 10 min or so. We know what Dean can do, and we know what the rabbit's foot can do. It has given everyone the same powers, so all the basic defenses and advantages the rabbit foot grants will be the same.

Satan of Reaper is a reality warper who has only been defeat by god almighty himself. He can't see or hear anything that happens within a circle, but being the great deceiver, he's more than capable of guessing. This is not someone who belongs within a ToC.

I think Anthony Freemont of Twilight Zone and Q from Star Trek are starting to sound like very reasonable entries in comparison to Ray. Ray's leaps and bounds a bigger step up from last Devil Randall Flagg, that's for certain.

Personally, Id easily support Q as a Cosmic, and if those other guys are in his class, Id support them as above SHW level as well.

Regarding other genres here, Id suggest moving Taarna from the MWs to the LWs, and Snake Eyes from LWs to the MWs.

DTM, I am begging you not to include this on the list. I've already stated why, and will restate if need be, but seriously, he has no place being anywhere near this list.