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Is being given an action to move 4 and being given an action to move with speed value replaced with Gordon's unmodified speed value the same thing? Are all move actions treated as the same.
Your question is too vague to be answered definitively. If you are asking if a character could use the GCPD ATA to make a free vanilla move action to move 4 and then another free vanilla move action to move 8 with Gordan's power, then the answer is no.
Officially: yes. There is no official WK doc that states this.
Logically: no. If "Resolve Immediately" still allows you to finish an action normally, including imbedded Free Actions, then what difference is there and what is the function of including "immediately"?
It's just as logical to conclude that it means to immediately resolve the free actions that the action allows. Given what I've read about how logic works in HeroClix, I would actually say that this is the more logical thing to do since it is what the rules actually tell you to do.
- Resolving an action includes resolving the free actions that action allows.
- A rule tells me to resolve the action immediately.
- I therefore also resolve any free actions the action allows, immediately.
It's not more logical to alter things based on what I think makes sense. That probably isn't really logic at all.
I know this isn't how it works, because I have read that the addition of "immediately" actually causes you to not resolve any free actions the action allows, despite it being part of resolving an action.
I would agree that if it didn't work the way it really does, then including "immediately" wouldn't make much sense. This is why I don't think improving the wording here is a high priority. I don't think I've ever encountered someone during a game trying to attack after failing a break away. Most people seem to know that the action immediately comes to an end.
Your question is too vague to be answered definitively. If you are asking if a character could use the GCPD ATA to make a free vanilla move action to move 4 and then another free vanilla move action to move 8 with Gordan's power, then the answer is no.
How is that different than flurry followed by Lizard's free action attack?
Quote : Originally Posted by normalview
Those are not the same effects. One (the free close combat attack granted via Flurry) is just a regular attack; no bells and whistles. The second (via Tail Attack) does have bells and whistles in the form of the modified AV.
Why is modifying enough to make it a different effect but providing a different source for the replacement value not enough?
Is there a general rule that there is only one type of move action but many types of close combat actions?
Honestly, I don't know how to phrase the answer you are looking for at the moment. I'll see if I can develop a concrete answer for you.
I know what the answer is, I knew that when I posed my earlier question. I want to understand why Lizard is allowed but GCPD followed by Gordon is not. Unless there is a general rule that all move actions are the same, I don't understand it. If that is the case, why aren't all close combat attacks (not close combat actions) the same? Why does modifying the attack value make it different but replacing the speed not?
It's just as logical to conclude that it means to immediately resolve the free actions that the action allows. Given what I've read about how logic works in HeroClix, I would actually say that this is the more logical thing to do since it is what the rules actually tell you to do.
- Resolving an action includes resolving the free actions that action allows.
- A rule tells me to resolve the action immediately.
- I therefore also resolve any free actions the action allows, immediately.
It's not more logical to alter things based on what I think makes sense. That probably isn't really logic at all.
I know this isn't how it works, because I have read that the addition of "immediately" actually causes you to not resolve any free actions the action allows, despite it being part of resolving an action.
I would agree that if it didn't work the way it really does, then including "immediately" wouldn't make much sense. This is why I don't think improving the wording here is a high priority. I don't think I've ever encountered someone during a game trying to attack after failing a break away. Most people seem to know that the action immediately comes to an end.
I'm not a fan of "immediately means without resolving any allowed free actions". I think it's cleaner to think of it like this: Charge (and Running Shot) allow you the option of a combat action as a free action after you move. If you fail to break away, then you never moved because you were unable.
"I'm giving Ultraguy a power action to use Charge." OK, roll to break away.
"Oops, I failed." Then resolve the action.
"Charge says after I move I can have a close combat action as a free action: do I get to do that?" You get that after you move: were you able to move? No? Well, then...
Hypersonic Speed has the same issue: if you fail to break away you don't get the free action attack because it has to come during the movement that you can't make.
I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you.
“No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife between the shoulder blades will seriously cramp his style.”
I know what the answer is, I knew that when I posed my earlier question. I want to understand why Lizard is allowed but GCPD followed by Gordon is not. Unless there is a general rule that all move actions are the same, I don't understand it. If that is the case, why aren't all close combat attacks (not close combat actions) the same? Why does modifying the attack value make it different but replacing the speed not?
They just aren't.
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Right, and that's the answer I don't have for you. The best thing I can say at the moment is that Lizard isn't using a free action make a close combat attack so much as he is using a free action to activate Tail Swipe. On the other hand, GCPD and Gordan both give the character a free action to activate a move action, and move action can be used for several different powers. However, I'm not that satisfied with this answer myself.
There does appear to be a conflict in rules logic here, though. If a close combat attack at -1 is not the same as a close combat attack because the former has "bells and whistles" then a move action to do a "standard" move ought to be different than a move action to move using a replacement value because the latter has "bells and whistles".
I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you.
“No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife between the shoulder blades will seriously cramp his style.”
There does appear to be a conflict in rules logic here, though. If a close combat attack at -1 is not the same as a close combat attack because the former has "bells and whistles" then a move action to do a "standard" move ought to be different than a move action to move using a replacement value because the latter has "bells and whistles".
I'm not really sure what the specific question is. I'd need to know to provide an accurate answer.
Where was it said that an attack with a modifier and an attack without a modifier are different?
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Right, and that's the answer I don't have for you. The best thing I can say at the moment is that Lizard isn't using a free action make a close combat attack so much as he is using a free action to activate Tail Swipe. On the other hand, GCPD and Gordan both give the character a free action to activate a move action, and move action can be used for several different powers. However, I'm not that satisfied with this answer myself.
Tail Attack specifically tells you to give a free action to make a close combat attack: you don't activate Tail Swipe with the free action, you get the free action from Tail Strike.
I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you.
“No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife between the shoulder blades will seriously cramp his style.”
I'm not really sure what the specific question is. I'd need to know to provide an accurate answer.
Where was it said that an attack with a modifier and an attack without a modifier are different?
In the thread he referenced it was said that a free action to make a close combat attack was different than Tail Attack's free action to make a close combat attack modifying the attack value by -1, because the latter has "bells and whistles" and the former does not, and so both free action close combat attacks would be allowed.
I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you.
“No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife between the shoulder blades will seriously cramp his style.”
Right, and that's the answer I don't have for you. The best thing I can say at the moment is that Lizard isn't using a free action make a close combat attack so much as he is using a free action to activate Tail Swipe. On the other hand, GCPD and Gordan both give the character a free action to activate a move action, and move action can be used for several different powers. However, I'm not that satisfied with this answer myself.
I guess there is at least one figure that could use both, dkr005a GCPD Officer has leap climb, so he could have one move action to just move and one move action for leap climb. But I don't think that answers the question of why Lizard is allowed and two vanilla moves from this would not be.
Tail Attack specifically tells you to give a free action to make a close combat attack: you don't activate Tail Swipe with the free action, you get the free action from Tail Strike.