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Having one overarching theme works for a single book/character/team. It does not work for a shared universe except as an exceptional circumstance.
It would work for a shared universe if the entirety of titles in said universe were fully participating in the story, and the repercussions of an event lasted longer than "Whenever a writer feels like they shouldn't".
If someone dies, keep them dead.
If a character's history is re-written, don't undo it. Better yet, don't re-write a character's history in the first place.
If two characters make a heroic sacrifice to shut down the portal to the Cancerverse and stop Thanos from wreaking havoc on the 616 universe due to being massively pissed-off that Death spurned him yet again, don't undo that phenomenal ending to the entire massive years-long story months later by having Thanos and Star-Lord pop up with absolutely no explanation why they're back simply because you're a douche who thinks everything you write is gold and you can get away with doing whatever you want because you're you, and to hell with all the fans.
So much of the Hydra Cap hate stems from it being in continuity (which isn't really true, cosmic cube), our current political environment, and the idea that Hydra is a Nazi organization (which isn't true). If this was just labeled as it's own thing I imagine it would garner less attention.
I don't see the need to point out that Hydra isn't a Nazi organization. Maybe they aren't literally Nazi's, but when you are run by the Red Skull and closely aligned with the Nazi party, the fact that you aren't literally Nazi's doesn't make things better.
I don't. It ####ed with my pull lists, which is goddamned annoying.
I guess I just like the idea of treating long form stories within a series as just long form stories. When they're done, they're done. I think the industry has been struggling under the pretense that everything happens in sequence as determined by the number of the issue, which I think makes sense to get away from in terms of being able to tell better stories.
Quote : Originally Posted by Thrumble Funk
Eh, the MCU did a great job of muddying those waters, as did AoS. And when the 616 takes a bunch of cues from the MCU, that'll happen.
Yea, and it's not like the actual 616 is super clear on anything with all the retcons and such.
Quote : Originally Posted by Thrumble Funk
Yes. 1000 times this. If I want the movies, I'll see the movies. I don't need constant reminders that these heroes basically live on top of each other.
If there's something meaningful to say and it's meaningful in conjunction with what something else is doing, yes, go for it. If you're doing it to stamp "Secret War tie in!" on the cover... maybe think about that decision from more than a marketing perspective.
I don't see the need to point out that Hydra isn't a Nazi organization. Maybe they aren't literally Nazi's, but when you are run by the Red Skull and closely aligned with the Nazi party, the fact that you aren't literally Nazi's doesn't make things better.
I think it makes things better.
I think Not-Nazi's > Nazi's is a pretty generally applicable rule.
I also happen to like the goofy version of Hydra where they were just the other super spy agency who was against SHIELD which was a globally independent super spy agency (which mostly employed Americans, because Americans buy more comics probably).
Also I like Secret Warriors a lot, and if Hydra was a Nazi organization, that means Nick Fury was a Nazi...
Frankly, I just don't want Nazis in my comic books. I like to be able to root for my bad guys to an extent.
It would work for a shared universe if the entirety of titles in said universe were fully participating in the story, and the repercussions of an event lasted longer than "Whenever a writer feels like they shouldn't".
If someone dies, keep them dead.
If a character's history is re-written, don't undo it. Better yet, don't re-write a character's history in the first place.
If two characters make a heroic sacrifice to shut down the portal to the Cancerverse and stop Thanos from wreaking havoc on the 616 universe due to being massively pissed-off that Death spurned him yet again, don't undo that phenomenal ending to the entire massive years-long story months later by having Thanos and Star-Lord pop up with absolutely no explanation why they're back simply because you're a douche who thinks everything you write is gold and you can get away with doing whatever you want because you're you, and to hell with all the fans.
That last one might be a little specific. Maybe.
All good points.
But, how do you feel about Bucky/Winter Soldier? I think a character death should be nigh-permanent. That is their return should be unexpected, somewhat well explained, and at least 10 years after the death.
Stories about fake death, such as LMDs, are still allowed but should be reserved for non-sacrificial deaths.
But, how do you feel about Bucky/Winter Soldier? I think a character death should be nigh-permanent. That is their return should be unexpected, somewhat well explained, and at least 10 years after the death.
Stories about fake death, such as LMDs, are still allowed but should be reserved for non-sacrificial deaths.
Bucky/Winter Soldier was probably an exception. But the revolving door that used to be "for mutants" has apparently extended its' access to everyone in the MU. There's a difference between pulling a character back in because there's a good story there and pulling a character back in because you want your shot at writing that character.
If Marvel actually has the guts to tell this story AND not undo it at the end of all this, so that Cap actually stays a member of Hydra, I might be interested enough to buy the Secret Empire TPB. But I don't have faith at all that Marvel will stick to anything beyond the length of whatever event they're doing at the time. Especially since Civil War 2 retcons have already been announced, along with a few other significant deaths.
I hear you normally, but this is definitely not the one story to finally start with. The sooner this is forgotten and ignored, the better. The 1 guy that doesn't deserve to be saddled with angst is the perennial optimist of marvel. The one guy that doesn't deserve to have his moral core unsettled and turned upside down into a post millennial malaise is cap. He needs to be the one guy that always elevates to a higher standard. The one guy above it all. The one guy that's, well, Steve freaking Rogers
But, how do you feel about Bucky/Winter Soldier? I think a character death should be nigh-permanent. That is their return should be unexpected, somewhat well explained, and at least 10 years after the death.
Stories about fake death, such as LMDs, are still allowed but should be reserved for non-sacrificial deaths.
1) Bucky's death was a retcon anyway.
2) There never was a body, so was he really dead?
3) the return was one of the best Captain America stories in the history of the character.
4) Cosmic Cube shennanigans are actually in the story for diehards who wnats the real Bucky to still be dead.
Yoda of Borg, we are: Futile, resistance is. Assimilate you, we will.
I hear you normally, but this is definitely not the one story to finally start with. The sooner this is forgotten and ignored, the better. The 1 guy that doesn't deserve to be saddled with angst is the perennial optimist of marvel. The one guy that doesn't deserve to have his moral core unsettled and turned upside down into a post millennial malaise is cap. He needs to be the one guy that always elevates to a higher standard. The one guy above it all. The one guy that's, well, Steve freaking Rogers
FWIW, I agree with you on Cap. It is why I love him and why I would hate a simple hand waving to finish the story as if it never happened. If in the end Captain America is brought back as the shining star of justice but the people cannot trust him I think I will be satisfied. I don't mind the world being distrustful of Captain America, sometimes the hero has to do the right thing regardless of what people think (there was an awesome cartoon Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Hero which had this plot line. Captain America appeared evil because of Skrulls, people hated him but ultimately he showed that he was Cap).
I don't think they end of this has to be "guess what Cap can be evil, so don't believe in anything" they could make the story so much more. The answer could be that you can't destroy the fundamental nature of Cap, but you can destroy people's trust in him.
But most likely: Guess what this was an alternate universe and there is no impact. Also, let's have Captain America be more angsty in the future just in case.
FWIW, I agree with you on Cap. It is why I love him and why I would hate a simple hand waving to finish the story as if it never happened. If in the end Captain America is brought back as the shining star of justice but the people cannot trust him I think I will be satisfied. I don't mind the world being distrustful of Captain America, sometimes the hero has to do the right thing regardless of what people think (there was an awesome cartoon Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Hero which had this plot line. Captain America appeared evil because of Skrulls, people hated him but ultimately he showed that he was Cap).
I don't think they end of this has to be "guess what Cap can be evil, so don't believe in anything" they could make the story so much more. The answer could be that you can't destroy the fundamental nature of Cap, but you can destroy people's trust in him.
I don't know that turning Cap into Spider-Man, The Hulk, or one of the X-Men is a great solution either. We've already read those for decades. I guess the positive side is at least someone at Marvel knows how to write those stories, not too much can be screwed up.
I don't know that turning Cap into Spider-Man, The Hulk, or one of the X-Men is a great solution either. We've already read those for decades. I guess the positive side is at least someone at Marvel knows how to write those stories, not too much can be screwed up.
I've read too many bad x- men stories to agree with that last part.
1) Bucky's death was a retcon anyway.
2) There never was a body, so was he really dead?
But we DID see his spirit in the afterlife... so... yeah, he was Dead with a capital D.
And Bucky's death was a retcon in the same way that "Captain America is alive in the modern day" was a retcon, being part of the same story, a story that was basically the foundation of the entire Marvel Universe (well, the Avengers side of the Marvel Universe anyway... well, the foundation of every Captain America story since the 60's anyway).