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I really don't see how I'm contradicting myself in saying that it deserves an entire deck devoted to it. That's still hurtful, because MOST people consider chaos to be the alpha deck, the best there is. So, of course, people devote their entire deck to it's support and other people see this, see that it works, and start running it. It becomes a problem when almost everyone begins running it. I know cookie cutters can't be stopped, when one person plays a good deck and consistently wins, it will be copied, but still, chaos cookie cutters everywhere is rediculous.
Luster soldier is an easy, strong, game winning monster. There's no way you can argue that. If you do deny it then you really need to rethink things. You say he's vunerable but, in all honesty, everything he's vunerable to, most other monsters are as well. That doesn't make it any more even, because late game, when you have less to work with, a 3000 attack monster, that comes out a VERY easy cost at that point can really shut you down. Think of every situation you can, and try to put different monsters into it. I would bet you that the player with the BLS would be at a bigger advantage than someone with another monster. Of course, there's always situations where another card would be better, but, that's not the point. BLS is consistently good, reliable, game winning, and overpowering.
As for me whining to get it banned, it's not that it really bothers me that much. I know it will get banned one day, I'm just trying to see why you're arguing for it so much. Why cling so desperately to soldier? Would it really hurt you that much if it was gone? Just another card to add to the banned list, if he's not so broken, right? I mean, if it's not that good, then, hey, why even run it? Who needs an a monster with a HORRIBLE summoning cost of 1 light and 1 dark? 3000 Attack..pshhh. My Ultimate obedient fiend can kill that! Remove monsters from play for free, f/d or not? Yeah..right. Remove my DD Scout plane from play. Oh and double attack, whatever, I got an armed samurai benkei that can attack 3 times! BLS is garbage. :cheeky:
To futher come to terms with why I hate luster soldier so much, you really need to understand my play style. I am usualy the one that if you let me get to the late game, my deck is still running consistantly.
Chaos decks force me to alter my play style. Chaos decks THRIVE on late game more than anything else, and its why everyone in my meta has asked me time and time again why I simply dont run chaos and sweep the entirity of the tourniment. If I were to take a choas deck, I'd be winning regionals. My decks always draw consistantly well throughout the match, and in the late game when my opponent has a few things he can do, I'm usualy calculating odds of drawing, formulating stratagies, etc. I played a friend of mine recently, and I knew I had my comeback in the bag. I had my don and my reaper out, fissure and dust tornado face down, he had NO monsters but two scape goats, and I was making my triumphant come back. I looked at the cards I've played, and I knew what I had left in my deck. I knew I had this game in the bag no matter what I drew.
Unfortunately, it only mattered what he drew pot, summoned breaker, broke my dust tornado, and played BLS. The game I should have had in the bag, was now just as quickly over. BLS is a plan wrecker, hes a Win stealer. BLS in a majority of scenarios can take victory away from the best of us, and its unbalancing. Why did we get rid of yata? its simple, he had the ability to win the game. Why whould we get rid of luster?
Simple, luster does something worse than win games, he forces the flow of the game 100% to whoever controls him. How can I say that? Everyone that plays BLS dreads the thoguht of him being snatch stolen, and combined with Jinzo/Horus 8, he's neigh unstoppable.
Look through all the decklists of the past three Shonen Jump Championships. Around 80% of those decks will have Envoy of the Beginning in a deck.
Now look at its stats and effect compared to the disadvantage it is to summon it. Its cost is to remove monsters from the graveyard, cards that cannot be counted towards your current card count anyway. When Envoy is summoned, he removes no overall card advantage from your field. So technically, for FREE, you get a 3000 ATK monster that can either attack twice or simply remove a threat from the field.
Unless your opponent can properly gain control of Envoy of the Beginning, you'll always be out on top by using it. IF you remove 1 monster and then it's nuked by removal, you traded your envoy for a minimum of two of their cards. If you attacked twice and THEN it's destroyed, you traded 1 card for 3 of theirs. At that point this card's power and advantage for you is bordering that of a commonly played Raigeki (where you would commonly score 1 for 2-3 in terms of card advantage).
Now look a t how easily the card can be splashed into decks that only have a couple light and dark monsters. Insane.
Some duelists I'm sure will try to argue that we'll then complain about whatever else will be widely used. Phoenix, for example. However, Phoenix is still a two-tribute monster that can only see mass advantage if special summoned. Its effect also ends due to graveyard removal effects, destroying it as a result of battle kills the effect, and at times that effect may hurt the opponent. Envoy...ends the game in one turn. Phoenix takes time to set up.
Any card that "replaces" BLS in decks will hardly be as bad. That card will possess a more situational feel and will lack that extreme power. It may be effective, and it may be good, but it still won't be nearly as powerful as BLS. That alone would balance this environment a bit. To put it bluntly: BLS needs to go.
Black Luster soldier is definitly one of the most broken cards in the game primarily because he is able to be used in both traditional and advanced format. The thing that gets me about this card, is how easy he is to summon. Firstly in traditional formant you can simply do the obvious things like painful choice and choose 2x light and 2x dark and sinister serpent, or various other schemes. In advanced format this is slighty harder because painful choice was banned for april 1st so now the reliance is on cards with discarding costs to put the lights and darks, cards such as raigeki break, lightning vortex, tribe infecting, and many others. In traditional format the strength of this monster isn't really that bad, because he usually only stays on the field for 1 to 2 turns because he will get destroyed via raigeki, tribe, dark hole, or simply snatched / change of hearted and removed. In Advanced its alot harder to get him off the field, because though the common cards of hammer shot and smashing grounds would in most cases instantly kill him those cards are usually used on smaller beatdown monsters early on.
This card like his Dragon counterpart easily regulates the speed of the duel, because either his removal effect will be used turn after turn, or he will double bash. My main beef with this card is that he is a no tribute monster, which is easy to summon and he has the strength of a Blue Eyes who for those of you who don't remember is only a NORMAL monster meaning no effect. If Upperdeck or Konami or whoever regulates the advance format list wants to keep the game fair why only ban Emperor Dragon (my personal favorite) which would help out burn decks, dragon decks, and several others; yet leave the Soldier which helps not only Warriors, Beatdown, but also cripples the other decks which try to be unique. They did after all ban a complete deck type from the metagame (the scientist deck), by banning Magical Scientist and in doing so also got rid of one of the easiest ways to get rid of the Soldier which was to pay 1000 for restrict and restrict the Soldier. So in closing I think Soldier should be burned, or more simply banned.
Off the first (too lazy to copy paste. I really am ;x)
Everything is vulnerable, but BLS is ESPECIALLY vulnerable because people will wait and hold something for it, because they know it'll do some kind of damage. I'll admit that, I know it can deal hefty damage. It doesn't mean it's broken. Red Eyes can deal hefty damage.
However, when you talk about the support, look at what you stated - Ha Des, a tribute and can't be special summon from the grave, Silent Swordsman, another Tribute, and Jinzo, yet a THIRD tribute. How long do tributes actually last? Not a whole while. Sure, they have SOME support, but unless you can drop them all at once there will always be something that can get rid of it. That, and Scapegoat, possbily the most used Spell besides the 'staples', stops them all from attacking.
Off the second -
I'm sure I answered this. I'll look back through, I remember seeing something about this.
I think I'll comply all of my posts together with WHAT I responsded too, and put them in a few posts togetherj. That might be easier for my case to be seen.
~~~~~~~~~~~
Samurai
*Checks to see what I posted again*
You take the contradiction argument the wrong way. I was refering to it being banned and you saying that there is already traditional. Not the deck usage.
I'll agree on the last two points. It's not easy, though. No win is easy unless I just pass my turn every go around. Everything can be gamewinning, everything can be strong. You can't pull one card out because it has two effects.
I still don't know why people it's an easy cost. The cost isn't easy. Not now. Assailant, Warrior Lady, Kycoo - we see them everyday, they can shut it down. Do you see your light and darks every time? People are running less everyday. It's not an easy cost. There's no simple way.
AND
There's no support from light/darks that are quick. Magician of Faith is very vulnerable/situational. Blade Knight is situational. Airknight is a Tribute. Warrior Lady removes itself. Reflect Bounder dies from damned near everything, losing any real field support. What other strong, solid Lights are there?
What about Darks? Sangan is ok I suppose, Breaker is good. Jinzo is a tribute. Reaper dies from targeting, which is getting bigger. Don is small, and Tomato needs more support. Kycoo itself gets run over and doesn't stay for the longest of time, getting one or two shots in.
BLS isn't consistant. Hell, stuff like Berserk Gorilla isn't even consistant, and it's an outstanding card in itself, in 3's to boot. So what makes BLS different? Overpowering? Ok, I'll swing an Assailant into BLS, or Smashing Ground. It just got overpowered. Have fun winning a game BEFORE that time, it's not always going to happen.
Reliable? That's like saying Jinzo is always reliable, or Airknight is. Neither of them are, no card is reliable. I can draw BLS and be happy as can be, but no dark or light in the grave? Dang...sucks.
I'm not arguing the ban. I'm just playing along with the thread. It's supposed to influence. You got right into this, too, so you can't accuse people of something that you've done yourself.
Btw, since when is it going to be banned? We all thought Delinquent and Mirror Force would stay banned, what happened? Did we expect Mirage and Confiscation to go on there? No to both, but did we expect Soldier to and it not show up? Of course.
So you know, I don't run Soldier. I did in Traditional when it wasn't limited because multiples of it got abusive FAST. I think I ran a denial with it for two weeks, and I didn't like how it started turning out. I run what's consistant and can have support without worrying about one card hogging the extra slots. Those slots can go towards removal, not lights and darks I need for one card that doesn't even show into my hand every game.
~~~~~~~~~~~
Agent, again ;x
Everyone has playstyles. However, that's a Chaos's flaw - late game. If they wait for too long to do anything, the game is gonna get lost very quickly to something that outruns it. Too many decks can get the upperhand, gg three turns later. That's not even mid game, and it's over.
And it actually isn't late game they rely on. It's topdecking and luck. If he hadn't of drawn BLS that one game, would you have won?
Also, insert argument on why duels can't be used on examples.
What's the unbalance? That's like saying Pot or Graceful unbalance the game. Look, you have two cards, I have two. I draw pot, and look! My hand is twice as big, twice as many options. That's a huge balance shift, and is usually game changing. What's so bad about that? Doesn't mean a finger should be pointed at BLS to ban it.
Regulates flow? Every game flow is different. What about Gravekeepers? Should we ban Necrovalley because they completely screw up the graveyard and monster setting abilities? No, why? The drawbacks, the same that BLS has. BLS is one card, and GKers is a DECK. That's the difference.
As for the Snatch Steal argument, everyone person fears every monster of being Snatch'ed, because it's auto-advantage lost. So should that ban it?
Horus/Jinzo? Have fun getting that out. The probability of that is slim to none, and there's very little support, if any, for such a mixed theme.
~~~~~~~~~
dawnyoshi_again
Ok, let's ban Pot of Greed, Graceful Charity, Heavy Storm, Premature Burial, Torrential Tribute, Ring of Destruction. They were in Shonen Jump decks. What's that got to do with banning a card? Nothing.
*sigh*
How is it free? It's sad to see how little people realize that the graveyard is part of the game, and not just someplace to store monsters for unreliability or to set used cards off to the side. The grave has a game of it's own, and if it's not played correctly it's done. It's only removing monsters, so what's the deal? Actually, its' a big deal. Unless you want to tlose advantage within it, don't do that. You'd need somethign to make up for the loss after BLs is gone. It'll probably get removed itself, because of all that's runnign around, so what's going to happen then? Oh, you can top deck Premature, what'll you get? Nothing, you wasted your resources earlier in the game. Mistake one.
It's not a trade-off, though. Apply what I said here about how the graveyard is a game in it's own and taht it's support is needed just as much.
Raigeki was quick, btw. It was over with, two seconds. BLS doesn't do that, it takes something to use, it takes too much timing to be consistant in Every.Single.Game. Raigeki just simply blew every game away, that's why it was banned. Black Luster DOESN'T.
SPLASHED? Oh wow, have fun mixing themes. That's killing so much support it isn't funny. Splashing is a bad thing. you need support for consistancy, BLS has little support, so it's not consistant. Have fun being stuck with cards that do nothign to impact the game moment.
Envoy ends it in one turn? News flash, if the game gets that late something is wrong. It should take AT LEAST two or three turns to get BLS to win it for you. It takes time to set-up properly, just LIKE Phoenix. Fuels why it shouldn't be banned, timeframe.
BLS needs to go, why? Somethign will always replace something. What replaced CED? BLS, and why? People were too obsessed with it when the drawbacks are horrible. Situational feels are always going to happen, they do now today WITH BLS. What's banning going to change?
~~~~~~~~~~~
samas000
Dude...anything can be used in traditional and advanced, save a few cards. Just because it's been able to be run in advanced doesn't make it better in traditional, makes it worse if anything because of the removal. I'm not sure what argument you're trying to make here.
They don't regulate speed. The just regulate the field. Speed might fluctuate in that time, but they don't say "this is how it's going to be, bish". Doesn't work like that.
Restrict wasn't the easiest way to remove BLS. Smashing Ground is, probably. One Card > 1000 LP and the Summon from Scientist.
To start, it's a flaw int he argument. Not cost to speak of? Reading the card you can tell there's a cost to it - "Remove 1 LIGHT and 1 DARK". That's a cost, and a big one. It may not seem like it, but without the power of Painful Choice there are virtually no ways to get the needed LIGHT/DARK to the grave QUICKLY. To spread on this point, the LIGHTS available aren't that great - We have D.D. Warrior Lady, Airknight Parshath, and Magician of Faith, HOWEVER - First, Warrior Lady gets removed from it's effect. It's one per deck, and it'll be used for removal on stuff such as Jinzo and Horus, meaning it's gone. Airknight is a tribute, have fun getting it to the grave WITHOUT THE DISCARD of Painful Choice, and not including the discards from Card Destruction, Graceful Charity, or Tribe-Infecting Virus, the top 3 discarders in the format. Next, Magician of Faith is WAYYY to vulnerable to Nobleman of Crossout. It's probably not that great of an argument, but the core factor is that when a Magician is Crossed, it's gone, as is the rest of it's copies. That'll drop your light count, leaving you virutally screwed. Another possibly is Blade Knight, but this gives no advantage to the deck whatsoever. 1600? No way, with no real turning advantage effect, it's pointless. The negating flips? What flips are played that are DECENT, outside Magician of Faith now? Nobleman of Crossout handles it better. Having a hand of 1 card or less is a bad thing for the most part, you don't want to be top decking. Also, back to the flip negation part, you probably will have another monster or at least a Scapegoat Token on the field, meaning it's just pointless.
To the next point, refering to how the Cost is actually inconsquential,
TURN
The actual 1000 LP payment is much easier to get - You start with 8000, but do you start with the monsters in the grave? Nope. To not be able to activate the card would have to be later in the game, at which point you would have been damaged somehow. Otherwise, lifepoint payments, actually AT ALL, can't be compared to requirements of removing because you'll have them before hand, unlike the removal factor needed for Black Luster.
Next, on the argument refering back to how the card has power, what is that exactly? What seperates it from anything Else? Nothing, actually. The attack power is what is damaging, not the effect. Look, Mataza the Zapper and Hayabusa Knight can ALSO ATTACK TWICE, but why aren't they used as much? It's the attack power, straight up. Soldier has a second effect for removing, but what happens then? Sure, you can't deal damage, but any smarter player would simple kamikazee something such as Warrior Lady or D.D. Assailant or summoned Tribe Infecting Virus. Then, they're the spell cards that take care of this card, such as Creature Swap and Enemy Controller. Also, with such a high defense, Smashing Ground has a prime target.
So to finish, there is a COST because of the ATTACK POWER. It's not so much the effect as the attack power. Now, moving on to the second case.
[color=magenta]In today's Meta, I'd like to see a Virtual Normal Monster or Flip Effect monster OUTSIDE OF Magician of Faith that is mainstream in 90% of decks. (Cyber Jar isn't in that many) Then, I'd like to see the percentage of decks that DO NOT run some combination of Ring of Destruction, Mirror Force, Torrential Tribute, Bottomless Trap Hole, D.D. Warrior Lady, D.D. Assailant, Tribe-Infecting Virus, or Lightning Vortex. Right there is more than enough removal to take care of it. He doesn't put enough of of the job, and the reason for it is because MORE PEOPLE ARE USING EFFECT MONSTERS! Exodia has normal monsters, you won't see very many, IF ANY, more decks that run them. To handle flips, why not just run Nobleman of Crossout and also remove more copies? Removing more than 1 copy at once is always better, plus the monster could still attack and you won't have to worry about getting the monsters needed for Luster's cost to the graveyard.
Next, the problems behind Chaos Emperor and Yata-Garasu aren't that they are "godly" or "broken", because they are actually far from it. Emperor Dragon, to start, is by itself not that great. It'll deal a little damage and wipe the field, THEN WHAT! Ok, sure for your Yata, I don't care. Unless you still have a summon when the Witch or Sangan go with Dragon, I still have a draw, and that draw could virutally end the game for you. Oh look, I'll summon my own Yata! It'll happen, more than you would think.
Also, on Yata, that's way too situational. It's too time-oriented, which takes away playability and actual play value.
Next, let's revert back to the removal of Black Luster and the "disadvantage" - There is no advantage lost. The hand advantage factor DOESN'T APPLY. That's like saying "I'm going to play my Breaker regardless of what they have". It doens't affect your hand size, because you gain the advantage BACK from the spell or trap being removed. The overall factor for the field advantage doesn't change, either. I'll gladly ram an Assailant or Warrior Lady into it just so that I don't get robbed by it. You just lost your BLS in the process - What else do those decks usually run that can be DEVASTATING in attack power? Nothing, I would say.
If Black Luster is SOOOOO godly, and soo great for decks, why wasn't it banned? That's EASY!. It's not broken. It's not a staple. It's flat out not the best card in the format. I wouldn't even rate it top 5, because the speed factor and overall reasonbility behind the card is POINTLESS.
[/quote]
That's the answer to how it "shuts down" stuff. It's on page 4, I belive.
Of course it's Broken. And like someone in this thread stated: "Even a blind man can see that".
BLS is one of the most hated upon cards IMHO. Everyone I know that comes against it, always has some choice words to say about it afterwards. I personally don't like the card because of the way he's brought out. I mean, if the only cards I have in the graveyard at the time are Airknight Parshath and Jinzo, and I've got no monsters on the field, while he's got quite a few, well, you get my point. I think.
Kishi_No_Ryu, how are you warranting that? People's experiences from duels?
*insert theory on using duels bad*
There's a name for this kind of argument - I don't remember it though. My debate partner knows, I'll get it from him and post it later on.
Blind men can't realize BLS is broken. Metaphors are pointless when it's not even broken.
Obviously the poster above me is a newb... not because he uses BLS.. but because hes defending it and saying that its not a broken card... of course people are gonna use it... just like people used raigeki and imperial order but that doesnt mean they werent broken as you can see they are banned now for a reason. BLS is retarded and when he gets banned this game will be even more balanced than it already is... it will also cycle alot of newbs out of the game I believe.
I completely agree that it is broken for all those reasons and one more. When you summon BLS it is like a test to see if someone will activate like bottomless trap hole against it. They probably will because it is people do not want to go up against it. The main part of my argument is that if you have another monster on your side of the field and a DMoC in your hand, your opponet has many set traps, you have their lifepoints down enough to kill them in a single blast with DMoC, summon BLS then use it as a sacrafice to Bring out DMoC then one can get oh say a used havy storm and a person can with the game. BLS can be used as cheap sacrafice tool. Of all the arguments the whole easy summoning is probably the deadliest in terms of strategy. The question is who in there right mind would sacrafice a BLS? This is probably one of the more strategic ways of using BLS not for his cheap effects but sacraficing it to bring out a monster that can do potentially more damage. It is like that old saying easy come easy go.
Obviously the poster above me is a newb... not because he uses BLS.. but because hes defending it and saying that its not a broken card... of course people are gonna use it... just like people used raigeki and imperial order but that doesnt mean they werent broken as you can see they are banned now for a reason. BLS is retarded and when he gets banned this game will be even more balanced than it already is... it will also cycle alot of newbs out of the game I believe.
Post reported.
Ahahah! I don't even own a BLS. I don't want one, it's not that great. At least I can back up what I say and not go around calling people newbs because they can't respond.
Wow. It's used because people belive it's good. The fact is, though, it's not. I've posted plenty.
Just stop flaming people. You are obviously looking bad.
~~~~~
Zelda D. Lord
Sacraficing BLS, for what? If no removal is done to the BLS, what'll happen with the DMoC? Same thing, really. The odds and probabilty of it happenign dont' warrant, and having heavy storm in the grave isn't the greatest of likelihoods. Also, who says Torrential won't trigger when BLS is summoned.
Also, DMoC is just as big of a drawback monster - double tributes.
I'm really gettin' tired guys, GIVE ME A BREAK FOR TODAY!
Off the first (too lazy to copy paste. I really am ;x)
Everything is vulnerable, but BLS is ESPECIALLY vulnerable because people will wait and hold something for it, because they know it'll do some kind of damage. I'll admit that, I know it can deal hefty damage. It doesn't mean it's broken. Red Eyes can deal hefty damage.
However, when you talk about the support, look at what you stated - Ha Des, a tribute and can't be special summon from the grave, Silent Swordsman, another Tribute, and Jinzo, yet a THIRD tribute. How long do tributes actually last? Not a whole while. Sure, they have SOME support, but unless you can drop them all at once there will always be something that can get rid of it. That, and Scapegoat, possbily the most used Spell besides the 'staples', stops them all from attacking.
Off the second -
I'm sure I answered this. I'll look back through, I remember seeing something about this.
I think I'll comply all of my posts together with WHAT I responsded too, and put them in a few posts togetherj. That might be easier for my case to be seen.
~~~~~~~~~~~
Samurai
*Checks to see what I posted again*
You take the contradiction argument the wrong way. I was refering to it being banned and you saying that there is already traditional. Not the deck usage.
I'll agree on the last two points. It's not easy, though. No win is easy unless I just pass my turn every go around. Everything can be gamewinning, everything can be strong. You can't pull one card out because it has two effects.
I still don't know why people it's an easy cost. The cost isn't easy. Not now. Assailant, Warrior Lady, Kycoo - we see them everyday, they can shut it down. Do you see your light and darks every time? People are running less everyday. It's not an easy cost. There's no simple way.
AND
There's no support from light/darks that are quick. Magician of Faith is very vulnerable/situational. Blade Knight is situational. Airknight is a Tribute. Warrior Lady removes itself. Reflect Bounder dies from damned near everything, losing any real field support. What other strong, solid Lights are there?
What about Darks? Sangan is ok I suppose, Breaker is good. Jinzo is a tribute. Reaper dies from targeting, which is getting bigger. Don is small, and Tomato needs more support. Kycoo itself gets run over and doesn't stay for the longest of time, getting one or two shots in.
BLS isn't consistant. Hell, stuff like Berserk Gorilla isn't even consistant, and it's an outstanding card in itself, in 3's to boot. So what makes BLS different? Overpowering? Ok, I'll swing an Assailant into BLS, or Smashing Ground. It just got overpowered. Have fun winning a game BEFORE that time, it's not always going to happen.
Reliable? That's like saying Jinzo is always reliable, or Airknight is. Neither of them are, no card is reliable. I can draw BLS and be happy as can be, but no dark or light in the grave? Dang...sucks.
I'm not arguing the ban. I'm just playing along with the thread. It's supposed to influence. You got right into this, too, so you can't accuse people of something that you've done yourself.
Btw, since when is it going to be banned? We all thought Delinquent and Mirror Force would stay banned, what happened? Did we expect Mirage and Confiscation to go on there? No to both, but did we expect Soldier to and it not show up? Of course.
So you know, I don't run Soldier. I did in Traditional when it wasn't limited because multiples of it got abusive FAST. I think I ran a denial with it for two weeks, and I didn't like how it started turning out. I run what's consistant and can have support without worrying about one card hogging the extra slots. Those slots can go towards removal, not lights and darks I need for one card that doesn't even show into my hand every game.
~~~~~~~~~~~
Agent, again ;x
Everyone has playstyles. However, that's a Chaos's flaw - late game. If they wait for too long to do anything, the game is gonna get lost very quickly to something that outruns it. Too many decks can get the upperhand, gg three turns later. That's not even mid game, and it's over.
And it actually isn't late game they rely on. It's topdecking and luck. If he hadn't of drawn BLS that one game, would you have won?
Also, insert argument on why duels can't be used on examples.
What's the unbalance? That's like saying Pot or Graceful unbalance the game. Look, you have two cards, I have two. I draw pot, and look! My hand is twice as big, twice as many options. That's a huge balance shift, and is usually game changing. What's so bad about that? Doesn't mean a finger should be pointed at BLS to ban it.
Regulates flow? Every game flow is different. What about Gravekeepers? Should we ban Necrovalley because they completely screw up the graveyard and monster setting abilities? No, why? The drawbacks, the same that BLS has. BLS is one card, and GKers is a DECK. That's the difference.
As for the Snatch Steal argument, everyone person fears every monster of being Snatch'ed, because it's auto-advantage lost. So should that ban it?
Horus/Jinzo? Have fun getting that out. The probability of that is slim to none, and there's very little support, if any, for such a mixed theme.
~~~~~~~~~
dawnyoshi_again
Ok, let's ban Pot of Greed, Graceful Charity, Heavy Storm, Premature Burial, Torrential Tribute, Ring of Destruction. They were in Shonen Jump decks. What's that got to do with banning a card? Nothing.
*sigh*
How is it free? It's sad to see how little people realize that the graveyard is part of the game, and not just someplace to store monsters for unreliability or to set used cards off to the side. The grave has a game of it's own, and if it's not played correctly it's done. It's only removing monsters, so what's the deal? Actually, its' a big deal. Unless you want to tlose advantage within it, don't do that. You'd need somethign to make up for the loss after BLs is gone. It'll probably get removed itself, because of all that's runnign around, so what's going to happen then? Oh, you can top deck Premature, what'll you get? Nothing, you wasted your resources earlier in the game. Mistake one.
It's not a trade-off, though. Apply what I said here about how the graveyard is a game in it's own and taht it's support is needed just as much.
Raigeki was quick, btw. It was over with, two seconds. BLS doesn't do that, it takes something to use, it takes too much timing to be consistant in Every.Single.Game. Raigeki just simply blew every game away, that's why it was banned. Black Luster DOESN'T.
SPLASHED? Oh wow, have fun mixing themes. That's killing so much support it isn't funny. Splashing is a bad thing. you need support for consistancy, BLS has little support, so it's not consistant. Have fun being stuck with cards that do nothign to impact the game moment.
Envoy ends it in one turn? News flash, if the game gets that late something is wrong. It should take AT LEAST two or three turns to get BLS to win it for you. It takes time to set-up properly, just LIKE Phoenix. Fuels why it shouldn't be banned, timeframe.
BLS needs to go, why? Somethign will always replace something. What replaced CED? BLS, and why? People were too obsessed with it when the drawbacks are horrible. Situational feels are always going to happen, they do now today WITH BLS. What's banning going to change?
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samas000
Dude...anything can be used in traditional and advanced, save a few cards. Just because it's been able to be run in advanced doesn't make it better in traditional, makes it worse if anything because of the removal. I'm not sure what argument you're trying to make here.
They don't regulate speed. The just regulate the field. Speed might fluctuate in that time, but they don't say "this is how it's going to be, bish". Doesn't work like that.
Restrict wasn't the easiest way to remove BLS. Smashing Ground is, probably. One Card > 1000 LP and the Summon from Scientist.
Agent, I'll find that post. I hope.
I agree with most of you rpoints there, but I'd like to point at that if you look at removal, a lot of it comes in monster form. That's why it bothers me. Most of the commonly played competitive decks have ways to take it out, via DD whatever, Ryu Kokki, Removal, Restrict, all that stuff. But, this limits things to those few decks, if you really wanna run a differently themed deck, i really doubt you'd have quite as much removal as the big ones that are played, so it almost forces people to play those certain deck types. Also, other than Bottomless and DD warrior Lady and Assaillant, there's no permanent solutions to BLS. Even if he does get destroyed, he can still be revived atleast twice. That's why I was saying it may be a bit too good. You start running out of removal after a while, agaisnt something that strong.
And as for the ban, I can PROMISE you eventually, it will be banned. Will it stay there, I dunno, will it just be switched for chaos emperor, maybe, but, I'm sure it will have it's stay at some point.
You do not understand what I just posted. If someone just summons a BLS their opponet will try to get rid of it as fast as they can. Why would an opponet want to see what happens with BLS instead of activating it right then and there. Using it as tribute fodder for DMoC is ingenous because they it could end up doing more good than harm. And a person can always premature burial it after Heavy storm anyways. It is a good card that is overpowerd and I know what I am talking about because I used this stratgey and it worked to my advantage no doubt. Using it as a tribute for DMoC and having another monster on the field gives it the allusion of a one tribute monster although two monsters are being tributed. Hence the saying easy come easy go.
But, are you always going to have the lights or darks? Nope.
btw, Assailant, Warrior Lady, and bottomless work in nearly every deck for removal.
I'm extremely tired. So yea...Sorry if that's really weak. I might do someting later, I don't know.
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ZDL
No, I understood what you said just fine. Thanks for repeating what I already knew, though.
My argument refered to the double tribute factor and that the probabilty of being able to sac for it is slim.
I still understood ;x
dawnyoshi_again
Ok, let's ban Pot of Greed, Graceful Charity, Heavy Storm, Premature Burial, Torrential Tribute, Ring of Destruction. They were in Shonen Jump decks. What's that got to do with banning a card? Nothing.
*sigh*
How is it free? It's sad to see how little people realize that the graveyard is part of the game, and not just someplace to store monsters for unreliability or to set used cards off to the side. The grave has a game of it's own, and if it's not played correctly it's done. It's only removing monsters, so what's the deal? Actually, its' a big deal. Unless you want to tlose advantage within it, don't do that. You'd need somethign to make up for the loss after BLs is gone. It'll probably get removed itself, because of all that's runnign around, so what's going to happen then? Oh, you can top deck Premature, what'll you get? Nothing, you wasted your resources earlier in the game. Mistake one.
It's not a trade-off, though. Apply what I said here about how the graveyard is a game in it's own and taht it's support is needed just as much.
Raigeki was quick, btw. It was over with, two seconds. BLS doesn't do that, it takes something to use, it takes too much timing to be consistant in Every.Single.Game. Raigeki just simply blew every game away, that's why it was banned. Black Luster DOESN'T.
SPLASHED? Oh wow, have fun mixing themes. That's killing so much support it isn't funny. Splashing is a bad thing. you need support for consistancy, BLS has little support, so it's not consistant. Have fun being stuck with cards that do nothign to impact the game moment.
Envoy ends it in one turn? News flash, if the game gets that late something is wrong. It should take AT LEAST two or three turns to get BLS to win it for you. It takes time to set-up properly, just LIKE Phoenix. Fuels why it shouldn't be banned, timeframe.
BLS needs to go, why? Somethign will always replace something. What replaced CED? BLS, and why? People were too obsessed with it when the drawbacks are horrible. Situational feels are always going to happen, they do now today WITH BLS. What's banning going to change?
[/color][/b]
wow. Okay, let's start with your first paragraph.
what's that got to do with banning a card? nothing.
Odd. I believe that, and the reasoning that the card was overly powerful, led to the banning of Skullclamp in MTG. And Ravager in type 2. And Disciple of the Vault.
My point- When you see the same thing and a theme based on it in every single deck, it's telling you that it needs to go if you want the card game to evolve a little more. Deck themes are not based off of cards like Pot. BLS creates a mindset where duelists will look for numerous light and dark monsters to use WITH BLS.
how is it free?
If you're removing monsters to the point where premature burial is a bad topdeck, then something is seriously wrong with the way you're going through the duel. BLS should not be seeing early play like that unless you are 100% POSITIVE that you'll win that turn.
Please note that your graveyard is only a place where you can consider its advantage if your deck is specifically built around it. If you're only using call of the haunted and premature burial when dealing with the graveyard, odds are not much else is based on it. Your point of using BLS as an early game card is relatively weak, as this card, along with cards like Raigeki and Reborn before their banning, were utterly wasted when played within the first few turns of a duel. It's a matter of conserving the card in order to achieve maximum advantage when you play it. BLS has the potential advantage of an average used Raigeki. Raigeki was banned. BLS usually achieves that potential advantage when played. See what I'm saying?
Likewise, if BLS is destroyed and you've been making sure to keep card advantage in your favor, then you should easily have options. Oh, and unless BLS is removed from play, then I would think premature burial would be an excellend topdeck...
SPLASHED???
yes. Splashed. For example, borrowing an argument from Evan Vargas, archfiends have a nice mixture of light and dark with desrook and Terrorking. This excludes commonly used lights and darks such as warrior lady and sangan. A nice mixture of monsters needed for Envoy to be justifiably added are right there.
Your replacement argument is also meaningless, as with that logic, you're criticizing the advanced format's forbidden list all together. Aside from that, Envoy saw a LOT of play before CED. If anything, a card like D.D Assailant could be considered a replacement to CED...or Mobius. Both which have their restrictions.
and please explain how Envoy doesn't simply "blow monsters away". Last time I checked, a 3000 ATK leviathan bum-rushing the opponent's monsters can certainly be described as "blowing monsters away".
Compare BLS to other monsters as well, and think, "if I didn't have access to BLS...what could I run? Perhaps something with high ATK for field pressence. Or perhaps a really nasty effect."
With Envoy, you are given just about everything you could possibly want in a monster.
You also argue that it's wrong to enter the late game. This is also absurd, unless you're playing rashly against a player who's equally rash, where the entire game will be relying on luck after both players exhaust all of their resources.