How can you possibly always neutralize arty on turn 2?

Not sure how topgun is neutralizing artillery; I think it depends on the type.

I've tried a. 2 VTOLS, move, push move and shoot b. VTOL or VTOLS +Arnis; base one artillery, VTOL the other c. VTOL+ARNIS + DF TRIKES, need to get opponent who has not brought enough infantry to screen d. Winning the artillery duel, Kenneth plus J37 can give even two enemy artillery pieces fits.. But then you're back to a VTOL, artillery model for the start of your army.

Any other good ideas?

Battlemechs too weak for the points; need a move-n-shoot capability; multiple shoot capability; need ability to 'opportunity fire' / overwatch fire.

ICE mechs: way overpowered, considering that Caterpillar made them. MOD's especially; why would someone waste IT on an ICE 'Mech??? :confused:

...and no, I didn't read the 1,000,000 replies before writing this.
:classic:

~Jim

While I would love to see mechs reattain dominance in this game, simply slapping "move and shoot" on them will cause more harm than good. Just think: it will all come down to having the mech with the greatest range/speed combat ranges, much the way that "Chargemonkeytude" (cheers for the heads up Warflail!) currently causes a limiting of choices. It also messes up the current points system EVEN FURTHER, since it doesn't take a Masters degree to figure that fire arc plays a whopping impact on the cost of a miniature (explains Marcel Thennes pretty well, anyhoo).

Imposing strict modifiers may well be the way to go if that avenue of Move 'n' Shoot is chosen, but in the end that's for the playtesters (they HAVE them, it's OFFICIAL, and they are gonna get the time they need to balance things better, so no cheap shots!!!) to decide. They just want us to highlight the prob areas as we see them.

On that note, here's my latest two penneth - in any strategy or tactical game, units have specific strengths and weaknesses that stand out to most observers as obvious. Anyone in the UK who's caught the TV show "Time Commanders" and yelled blue murder at the half-witted teams they pit as Generals and Lieutenants leading virtual armies of Trojans and the like against a reknowned computer general of old can see - Those pikemen may be classy used head on against any infantry or cavalry, but they are vulnerable as a baby to the sides and rear 'cause they can't turn. Equally, often Cavalry specialise in hitting exposed infantry quickly, but they get torn apart if they don't fade after the initial strike.

In MW:DA, Infantry tend to be good at taking out mechs, vehicles are good at cheaply dealing with any threat you care to mention, VTOLs are strong against everything barring AA and Arty, while Arty can terrorise everything. These are some of those horribly sweeping statements we all hate, but spot what's missing...

Point is, most mechs tend, in general, only to be barely reasonable at decking other mechs, or as acting as bullies, and to do THAT well some have to resort to CMT, a skill that naturally favours a minority. Neither of these is what we'd term as a strength. Infantry may well remain a viable threat to mechs, but the solution for mechs is to make them have a defining strength that has merit in the game. Pushing currently doesn't do that, since by the time they start to push, a lesser amount of little units has already crippled it.

See, I want mechs to rock again, but not to go so far the other way that two to three months after the "big fix" we have players moaning once again, but this time the cheese is any mech with a decent speed and range. That would be barking... :laugh:

It's past midnight here, but I think that lot was pretty coherent... :confused:

Ok, this thread seems to have quieted down somewhat. Are we all pretty much in agreement about what the problems are? Listing once again, these seem to be the problems (let me know if I'm missing something)...

(In no particular order)

Major Issues:

Tankdrop (Expensive unit cant move/attack 20" or more? Unplayable.)
Chargemonkeytude (Unit is vulnerable to charges? Unplayable.)
Mega Damage Arty (Too much damage for too cheap and AP too?)
VTOLs (Move/attack at extreme ranges for economy prices? Why play anything else?)

Minor issues:

Capturing (Too easy, particularly given IT and possible crit hits.)
Heat effects (Arty = move or die. Bad heat = die or die.)
Overpowered/must-have SE (IT, agility, AP)
Underpowered/wasted-points SE (ECM, armor, camo)
"Reality" issues (peasants pinning down mechs)

So, seeing as how nobody has posted here all weekend, I'm kinda assuming we've been over everything at this point. Draddog, I know you didnt want us discussing possible solutions in this thread, for whatever reason. Is there a particular place or method in which you would like us to discuss potential solutions? Maybe would you like to start some sort of thread, perhaps with a "if you post a possible solution on this thread and Wizkids likes it, you are giving us the right to use it" disclaimer or something?

Basically, what do we do now? How can we help? *chuckle*

Looks right on Warflail.

I think that some people overestimate the power of artillery, but some of the artillery pieces (3 damage AP or 4+ damage) are a bit undercosted to be fair (especialy the towed ones).

The mere idea that a 100 ton tank can fit into a 50 ton transport and, additionally, that transport can still move at full speed is totally ridiculous. It also screws up game balance.

I think that heat effects are a good thing. the few overly powered artillery units are not. Move or take damage is fine. Taking damage once from that long range should not mean instantly dying or being effectively neutered for the rest of the game.

Excellent thread and recap Warflail!

I suggest a minor issue with Grapple SE infantry. Perhaps single Grapple units should not reduce chance of mech break-aways quite so much?

Side note: Would love if Grapple worked on VTOL units also. (A-ha! I base your VTOL with my JJ capable Fa-Shih, roll that 5-6 baby! Missed? Well, you can spin, but your Donar is gonna have to take his lumps now! Well, maybe, if I can even hit it...)

I've just thought about synthesizing several points into one big issue:

NOT ENOUGH RANGED FIRE FROM 'MECHS. That's the main draw of CBT, and it's nearly insignificant in MW:DA.

It's part of the reason Chargemonkeytude and Tankdrop and Basing and VTOLs are so effective against 'Mechs: 'Mechs get time to squeeze off at most one shot against advancing units, ever. There needs to be some way for 'mechs to be more effective at long ranges, either by being able to somehow shoot farther, or by slowing the rate/consequences of other units basing/charging them.

I think those are right.

Also, I am interested in where do we put solutions, and like everyone else, we must wait for draddog.

There is indeed one issue that no one has addressed. It is true of any game in which one must pay points for the pieces used, one gains points for the pieces eliminated and there is a random element such as dice rolls. The issue is that, if one uses a relatively more expensive unit and places more of ones "eggs in one basket" then one can suffer more greatly from extremes of luck.

That unit may be neutralised by a lucky dice roll. Unlucky rolls may also cause an expensive unit to fail to live up to its potential and prove to be an unsuccessful investment of points.

That unit, given the nature of clix games, may easily be removed from the game, even for a short time, by basing it with one or with a succession of relatively cheap units (like infantry).

By their very nature, Mechs are always going to be this type of unit. They are always going to cost a lot of points realtive to the build total of the army and relative to other units. VTOLs are not only powerful intrinsically because of their abilities but also because, at 50 odd points a pop for the good ones, they are exacly the right cost. If an army is made up of 50 point units, then one can activate the entire army, using all one's orders, in two turns.

For exactly these reasons, big point figures prove to be less efficient for serious play in both MK and HC. There are some which are so powerful that they make the risk worthwhile, for example, the Amazon Draconum in MK and Arnis Drummond in MW. These units are definitely considered, at the very least, undercosted or, more typically, "broken".

To actually make mechs worth the risk of their high point investment, they may indeed need to be underpriced (or overpowered, depending upon how one looks at it) to be a worthwhile risk or investment. Would changing the rules to such an extent to make mechs playable be the right thing to do? MK players have been complaining of the dominance of Amazon Draconum and the adverse effect on the game of a unit like it. Would turning mechs into ADs be what is necessary to make them truly worthwhile to compete with more cost effective units (that can currently do the same, if not a better job than a mech can and for a much lower cost) and would that destroy the game utterly? Is there a solution?

How about this. If a unit is about to be charged, that unit (the chargee) gets a free shot on the charger. order tokens and heat points would still apply, just a thought.

I agree to all the prolems listed.

I think that basing is quite a big problem, however, just because it made 80% of veichles unusable even before Fire for Effect was released...
(my suggestion would be: you can try a breakaway roll both for disengaging and for firing. If you succeed, you can flee OR fire to someone else in your arc. If you fail, you stay OR cannot fire, still getting heat in both cases)

[/i]

Am I the only one thinking that 'Mechs are overpriced??? I know a few people have commented in related vein; i.e., "Not enough 'Mech ranged combat". WELL, that's why; tied in with CMT, I guess; but simply labelling CMT is an oversimplification of all the 'Mech problems.

Please list that as a MAJOR concern; it is at the root of the games' problems, especially when people approach MW with the idea of those big pieces being able to have a dominant role in the game.

~Jim

Jim,

Mechs are overpriced with the current rules. There are just too many ways to kill or neutralize the overpriced mechs. Since the pieces have already been made, there is really no way to undo this.

IMO, one of the goals of this thread is to make mechs (other than arnis) playable again.

@ Sair & Henry. Since they don't want solutions posted here, PM me and I will let you know on the methods I've been tinkering with. It isn't foolproof ... or rather ... diceproof (let's face it ... the best laid plans can always be foiled by your dice when they refuse to cooperate :) ) .... but in general it seems to handle the most common metagame found at the moment.