It's driven by both. Some of my friends who quit Magic, tried this game and liked it when it came out, but didn't really feel like getting into the game. I was the only one who stuck with it and now travel about 30 minutes to play on Saturdays. Once I placed 9th at a 10k, my friends have started to ask me questions and started talking about playing again. It remains to be seen if this will actually happen, however.

From the local play group that I travel to play with, 2 of us Top 8'd, I got 9th, and 2 others got in the Top 20 at that same 10k. It made them feel good to place respectable. If all "pro's" had done well, you (collective you) think that they would have been like "That was awesome!! I totally scrubbed out!! That SO makes me feel like playing this game all time!!!!! YAY!!!!!!!!!"

So yes, having a Pro Circuit and "celebrity" players is important. Having tourneys won by the same group of 20-30 people all time isn't really THAT important is it?

There are other aspects of the market here that you aren't considering KK. You seem to be focusing on the interest and the draw of the tournaments. This is where your pro comment is applicable, but the draw of tournament play doesn't pay the bills. It costs UDE way more than it makes on 10K's. Truly, the players that play casually are a vastly larger group of players than pro players. Card sales are the cornerstone of the business, not chumps like me wanting to take a swing at a member of Team Realmworx East or West; in the card game way, of course. If the game is going to survive this initial beautiful couple of years of UDE literally tossing money into tournament play, it has to continue to keep the interest of the hobby player. Maybe at your store the vast majority of VS sales is tourney prone, but that doesn't hold for sales overall, or at least I am assuming that sales would be horrible if they are depending on the few hundred players that make the "pro" list and the few thousand that have paid for the honor of seeing Ryan Jones' hair part to the left in 3D, or BamBam's shirt or Dave's absolutely gorgeous chin.

Which brings me to point two: The very few pros of Collectible Card Games have an opportunity to be cool dudes. Yes, you all are in your own right, but to be ambassadorial, whew that is a ##cking great word, would mean that the shlubs really would want to play you. Not because they want to take a crack at you, but because you are FUN to play against, win or lose. My most memorable game of Detroit was against a guy who was playing with Puppet Master, I was playing Curve, yeah I suck, and he kept ordering me to EXHAUST BOLIVAR!!! We gotta keep them coming back for more than a lottery, they have to get something out of it that makes it enjoyable for other reasons cause I tell the truth, I love VS and 12 hrs. of play makes me want not play for a bit, win or lose. So we need to keep it entertaining for the masses. Also, we need to accept that this is a male dominant game and get some alternate art Mary Janes and Emma Frosts. Maybe Catwoman and Lois Lane on a pole, ya know, something for the kids...like YuGiOh!

Your two statements seem to say the same thing, but the distinction is more important than you might think. It's not actually the Pros themselves that keep things going, its the competitive play, and the perception that the regular players have that they can become a Pro.

Having stars of the game is good, as everyone wants to have someone to root for when you are reading coverage, but Pro players don't keep the system going.

Citizen- That was very diplomatic and well spoken. I do agree that it would be very lucrative for the game to develop, or rather for certain pros to step up and become, stars if they can hack the transition from player to PR monkey... I mean rep. Yeah, I know how attractive I make it sound, but really all my points are simply driving at the need to keep the players coming back for a long time; longer than the VS/UDE honeymoon we are in right now.

I didn't agree with a lot of the things I read in this thread, but I definatly agreed with the second part of this. I live in a pretty small town, however we still get about 15 people for Vs, twice a week. I got qualified for PNCY, and it really did jack up excitment for the game.

Anyway I think that the way 10k's are set up right now are very good. They incourage the average to above average players to get out there are get a taste of the competive scene. I mean, I would rather see Joe Schmo at top 8 and be ectastic about it, then somone like Bam Bam or Ryan Jones at Top 8, and complaining about the lack of money!

I feel that the "bye" system that is used for Magic is terrible. Imagine that you are a "Pretty Good" Vs player, and you spend like $300-400 bucks to go to a 10k. You do really good and end up with a record like 8-3. You would easially make Top 8, which is what you wanted coming into the event, but you didn't make it, because 4 of them guys in Top 8 got byes for the first 3 rounds, a bit unfair if you ask me!

Personally I think that it is good that it takes a bit to travel to 10ks. If it was profitable for the "Pros" to go to every event, then what incentive is there for the "Above Average" to "Good Player" to go to them same events.

I haven't read the last 100 posts, I am just replying to Dave's initial post.....

It's not called the '10k Circuit'. I love seeing local guys do well in 10k tournaments. That's the reason they are held in different cities all over the country.....

I think players that travel to these tournaments should still do so if they are playing for love of competition & seeing friends, but if they're trying to make money, then they should mainly just go to the 10ks they can travel to for cheap.

Anyone that makes top 20 that lives within driving distance should be happy with the results. For all you others out there, just realize that the Pro Circuit is a 4-event system, and 10k tournaments are not a part of that.

On the disparity of 3rd and 4th: What a joke. The person who gets 4th has to t8 another 10k to make up for their bad tiebreakers. I've been in this situation three times, but fortunately I haven't been prone to the tiebreakers. Once I had a split with the guy who got 4th. The other two times, I've played round 10 at 8-1, so a win puts me in top seed (aka 3rd).

On putting additional money into 10ks: Right now, UDE is paying a rediculous amount of money compared to the turnout they get at each 10k. Detroit had 140, which equates out to about $71/player. Compare to a Magic Grand Prix, which pays 25k for attendance of about 600, which is a conservative estimate. Thats about $40 a person.

On Pros/regulars attending 10ks: If some guy you've never heard of wins every 10k, then it sends a message that any buffoon can win. The Pro community is vital to the longevity of the game (look at games without Pro level events) On the other hand, if the same Pros win every 10k, then your average player will get discouraged and not go. Both are vital to the growth of the game.

Magic solves this by giving specific rewards for each group. They have an amateur payout on top of the regular payout, just for people that have never been to a Pro Tour. To the pros, they give out byes based on Pro standings or ratings. Also Pro points are given out, which translate into more money for the pros. I strongly disagree with byes, but I'd like to see more money for quarterfinalists. You should definitely make money if you fly to a 10k and then t8. This requires something in the range of $600-$800.

On this: Wizards, as I understand it, doesn't see ANY of the gate from the tournament (and I'd assume UDE doesn't either). The tournaments aren't designed to be moneymakers for the company--they're promotional events. The people who make money from the 10ks or Grand Prixes are the TOs. The turnout doesn't really matter to UDE (besides as a measure of health) because UDE is giving 10k away and not making ANY of it back.