A recent lack of steroids would still correspond to his lack of offensive production.

There ARE multiple explanations, a perfectly reasonable one you dismissed with "Wrong, wrong, wrong!"

And at the other end, you attribute his astounding jump in production in 2000 to legal supplements and training regimen? If that's the case, a training regimen such as that wouldn't stay secret for long. If I was Bonds' personal trainer I would be making an absolute fortune. Why would other players not have the same jump in production?

Enjoying the argument, btw.

Listen to the interview with his opponent that docx did in one of his podcast things. If you can't believe the guy sitting across the table from him then I don't know what can convince that it wasn't a mistake. It was him trying to correct a play error when that correction was a violation of the rules. AKA cheating.

I don't think I'd ever point to an ex-girlfriend's accusations as proof.

Ever.

Sorry for the double-post.

I am not trying to claim it was a mistake in anyway. I'm stating that I think Hoh tried to cheat in a manner that he could take back if he was caught. He was caught, he tried to claim it was a mistake. As far as I can see I'm 100% correct.

Agreed.

While its true indictment does not consecrate guilt, it does imply a very good posssibility of it. Especially of this level.

I honestly believe beyond a sadow of a doubt this man cheated the game. Its impossible to refut.

As to the "bone chip" arguement, the man had minor injuries throughout his career but never has he had such a slow start. I mean if he was not 100% he wouldn't be playing.

I didn't attribute his success to legal substances. I said this is a possibility. I do attribute his success to hard training though. I think to achieve anything on the level he has, even if he has taken steroids, takes a large level of commitment and preparation. But mostly I attribute his success to skill, pure raw God given talent, something that doesn't have anything to do with steroids. Maybe his output has been boosted by steroids, maybe not. All I know is that he has earned my respect by his large dedication to the game and his achievements.

I don't respect Hans for cheating, but I respect his continued dedication to the game and the level of success he achieved before the PC incident. I honestly don't think he used cheating to accomplish the many things he did before that incident. That's just my personal belief. No comment on Roy......

Anytime you want to relate VS to baseball I will gladly give my opinions and keep them civilized.

True enough, and I agree, but for most people who will argue for Bonds, these things aren't actual proof.

Players play all the time at less than 100%. I think Bonds will play as long as he's getting somewhere (helping either the team or himself) and as long as his manager will let him play. I certainly don't think he's 100% right now, because give the past, 100% for Barry Bonds has eight to ten homers right now.

actually, if you had the secret to making someone able to hit 73 homers in a season, you would hush up about the actual aspects of the process. Unless you actually invented a brand new patentable supplement to sell, you would want people to know your clients are successful, but you wouldn't advertiese your actual methods. And I bet you a dollar that Bond's personal trainer was making a fortune. Actually, being the personal trainer for a superstar pro athlete like Bonds is probably pretty damn near a full time job, as you would likely go with to every game and practice, while having to constantly read and research and probably keep yourself in shape too, and giving forty five other major leaguers the same boost might make you rmildly rich now, but might leave you out of a job ultimately. I'd rather get a 200k salary for life then someone hand me 3 million right now.

And as for why other players didn't see such a marked improvement? well maybe other clients are mostly body builders or other athletes, world record holding track stars.

I actually think bonds didn't take steroids knowingly, but absolutely took the then untested, non-illegal hgh and possibly cow hormones, which while disgusting and most likely harmful is technically not cheating.

and one can argue that that still is terrible and goes against tradition, and cheats fans, but who among us would not use something legal to make us do our jobs better. Like if I was a cop and invented a lightsaber, I'd use that stuff even though it is technically illegal to carry swords around, even for cops. Thing is, until the governement or the agency I work for prohibits lightsabers or classifies lightsabers as swords, i'm going to Jedi on some criminals.

The hell you wouldn't. This is a cash cow of unbelievable scale. You could have a clientele of some of the highest-paid people in the country. You have them all by the throat, because obviously they can't compete if they're not on the program. And you have a marketable item--the training regimen itself. Why on earth would you not market this training scheme?

How many players does it take to make ####-you money? Ten? Fifty? Considering you'll have every baseball player on earth paying you for your training scheme, you can give the finger to Barry Bonds and his 200k a year. There's no way he can pay you more than a piece of every major league ballplayer in the world. Hire people to train the athletes. Get your money and get out. You can be on Bonds' payroll until he retires, or you can get your three million, get out, and find something else to make money with for the rest of your life.

If I was a major league ballplayer and I could get results like Bonds got without using steroids, I would be literally throwing money at Greg Anderson. The amount you pay him is guaranteed to be less than the signing bonus on your next contract after you start hitting forty homers a year.

I think Bonds knew exactly what he was doing. How can you be a major league ballplayer, for whom their body is the source of their income, just spread some random cream on your body? I'd sure as hell know what I was putting in myself if my livelihood depended on physical skills.

Read your last sentence again, please, and try not to use rose-colored glasses this time.

I'll make it easy for you. He LOOKS at the cards while he shuffles them until he sees what he's looking for. He's already been banned for cheating, so to say he didn't do something because he wasn't allowed to is kind of like saying the convicted murderer didn't steal that candy bar because you're not allowed to.

I think this would be more of an issue in yugioh as most of the good cards are limited to one per deck. In Vs., you can run 4 of anything so you can't keep track of where all of them are.

And the proper penalty for that is a double game loss, not only a game loss for the person who didn't draw.

Remember, mandatory card effects are the responsibility of both players to remember. It is the duty of the player who got Time Sealed to remember not to draw, yes, but it is also the duty of the person who activated Time Seal to remind the person not to draw, especially when he sees him reaching to draw the card.

P.S. - I'm glad Time Seal was banned so now I don't have to deal with that crap anymore to begin with :)

Um...what? I'm not supporting Roy, I'm saying that what you claim is impossible to do (and get away with, unless you let him - read on).

If he did this so obviously to you, and you didn't call him on it, then all I have to say is "What were you thinking!?"

Roy cheats, but I've never heard of anyone who was cheated so blatently and didn't call him on it.

Just...wow. Here's a hint: next time you face someone who does that...it's illegal. Call them on it.

I say he (or anyone) didn't do it because I didn't think anyone would be stupid enough to let him do it.

If you saw him and didn't call him on it, that's ridiculous.

And your analogy doesn't make any sense. It would be like telling the murderer not to murder anyone.

Right. And this isn't a YuGiOh forum. This is a VS forum.

So let's keep the ridiculous event of YuGiOh out of it, k? My statement about the impossibility of rigging your opponent's deck applies to Vs only.

...wow.

Ummm......tell me if I'm wrong but this thread is about Roy St. Clair who got banned for cheating in YUGIOH, right? So therefore doesn't YUGIOH have a place in this thread.....wow! (whatever the wow! was for I do not know).

Everything is that black and white to you, I suppose? The person that cheats is likely going to try to do the best job possible from keeping the opponent from figuring out he or she is being cheated. If it is that obvious to the opponent that the shuffle is being manipulated, then yeah, I'll bet the opponent will call him on it.

Furthermore, just the fact that Roy was banned from what he did at a "ridiculous Yugioh event" makes it relevant to the discussion.

Apparently it took ridiculous Yugioh people at a ridiculous Yugioh event to get Roy banned, while you much better folks just twiddled your thumbs for years I suppose?

My analogy doesn't make sense at all because it's an analogy of something that makes no sense to begin with. The quoted poster, if you'd like to read the original post, basically said that a cheater wouldn't cheat because he's not allowed to cheat. Yeah, we all know that's exactly what happens.

And for what it's worth, Roy wasn't allowed to get away with it the time it was obvious. You just assumed he was. There were two other times during that match where it wasn't so obvious until after the match was over and we were looking back.

If you want to flame me for giving you folks a warning to protect yourself, then fine, go right ahead and feel superior. It's your money you're getting cheated out of, not mine. Enjoy.