Some folks do not care if a story is good if it is not the story they want to read. I understand, I just don't subscribe to that philosophy.

But a lot of people don't think Slott has earned any cred/respect with his run. I think he more than has and I want to see how things play out.

For me, this is Bru on Cap all over again. And that worked out great for me as a reader.

I'd have to disagree with that. To me, this is more like if Red Skull succeeded in taking over Cap's body, and everyone thought that he was Cap.

That's what bothers me the most about this, Doc Ock's attempt at redemption not-withstanding.

If it works for you, fine, but me... ugh, pass.

Well, I simply mean it's a major change that will at most last until the next movie. Bru had his "fix" worked out, I believe, before it all even happened. I'm certain Slott does as well, since this story has been building for years.

And you bring up something that is why I'm interested in this. Did Doc Ock want redemption? Or does the weight of experiencing (through memories) the things Peter Parker has been through make him seek redemption?

Hey, if this is how Slott fixes OMD and gets Peter and MJ back together eventually? I'll be good with it, eventually. Right now, looking at it, I'm kinda WTFZOMGAUGH.

I’ve got mixed feelings about this comic. I liked how Peter got to see Uncle Ben, and that he got to look back at all of the accomplishments over his career. It drew small parallels to Slott and Spider-Man readers as a whole, and felt like a necessary thing to see if Peter was going to leave. The choice at the end was very ballsy, and in a world with static, unchanging characters, the attempt to make a villain into a new hero, and fundamentally change one of the most popular superheroes in the world was ambitious in a medium that often lacks ambition. I’ve read the interviews for Slott, and I agree that this has a lot of storyline potential in how Octavious will handle things differently than Parker, how Octavious will react to old allies, and how Octavious’ new allies will react once he ends up confiding in one or two of them or they find out. There’s a lot of short term potential, especially for Octavious’ character.

However, there’s also some disappointment too. This isn’t a Doc Ock comic, it’s a Spider-Man comic. The idea that Ock would be able to outsmart Spider-Man so thoroughly, even after we’ve spent the last few years establishing how Parker’s intellect rivals Stark and Richards’, is difficult, and frankly painful, to accept. While the readers got to see the big send-off for Spider-Man, Parker himself didn’t. Jameson, as part of the sendoff, even made a comment of begrudging respect for Spider-Man, but Parker never got to hear it. Now, maybe Peter didn’t need to hear it because he’s selfless, but the reader feels for him, and wants him to succeed. He’s the underdog who always stands up for what’s right, gets kicked around for it, and keeps going. That might make this par for the course for him, but for the reader, we keep going with him because we want him to succeed eventually. We want his diligence to get rewarded because he’s sticking up for us. Like Superman, he sticks up for what’s right, but unlike Superman, he can be hurt, so it’s more of a conduit for ourselves. We want Spider-Man to succeed because we want to believe that (at least in a made up world), our own diligence will pay off. Parker’s didn’t. He fought tooth and nail, failed, and then died on live TV with no one to mourn or even acknowledge his passing. Meanwhile, Ock gets away scot free (so far), and now we have rape implications if and when he hooks up with Mary Jane, which also sends the message to readers that it’s ok to sleep with someone by pretending to be their S.O. (when it’s not).

The other thing I think about is the larger change in Marvel comics, and who they appeal to. A few years ago, Deadpool burst onto the scene. He was around for a while before that, but now he’s in seemingly everything. He fights like an insane ninja, heals like Wolverine, addresses the audience like Watcher, and quips like Spider-Man, so what’s not to love? The last key part of his character is that he often chooses not to care. He can save a little girl, and be held up as a hero, or he can shoot at the girl for a good laugh. Either way the reader’s happy, and they don’t have to think too deeply about moral implications. We also saw Red Hulk get really popular really quick, because he’s about as strong as regular Hulk, but whines/cares less than Banner. Red Hulk was an ####### before he was Red Hulk, and he can save the little girl or just chalk her up as an acceptable loss. Marvel also recently tossed out the Kaine Scarlet Spider, which has the tagline “All of the power, none of the responsibility.” That highlights where I see Marvel going with this. That’s not to say we don’t have good and moral characters, and that we’re inching towards doom and depravity with each coming generation, but it’s hard to deny that gritty characters who don’t sweat the details seem to be where it’s at, which eventually sets us up for lazy storytelling. Saying Doc Ock is the “Superior Spider-Man” is pretentious, which works for Ock, but it sends the message that this is the Spider-Man the readers want. I like my morally grey characters just fine, but they need shining paladin examples to stand next to for contrast or they don’t stand out. Iron Man needs Cap and Thor, Batman needs Superman, Red Hood needs Batman, and we need Spider-man.

Marvel’s currently saying that this is going to be a permanent change for Spider-Man.
http://www.cnn.com/2012/12/26/showbi...rsy/index.html
Whether or not that’s true…is kind of dubious at best. Also, permanent change doesn’t have to mean irreversible change. Even if Peter gets his body back, this event will have happened, and will have affected the overall story…so it’s easily permanent, but not necessarily irreversible. Like it’s been pointed out earlier, no one really dies in comics, so at some point Parker will come back. You can’t have entire generations of readers raised to believe that Peter Parker became Spider-Man after being bit by a radioactive Spider and guilted by the death of Uncle Ben, and THEN drop them into a comic where Spider-Man is Doc Ock, who stole all of that from Peter and decided to try to be a good guy. Batman can’t be Dick Grayson or Azrael, Captain America can’t be Bucky or US Agent, and Spider-Man can’t be Ben Reily or Doc Ock. To long term fans, it feels “off,” and to incoming fans it’s confusing.

Let’s say there’s a ten-year-old boy in a couple years who sees Amazing Spider-Man 2 in theaters where Spider-man is Peter. He then watches a Spider-Man cartoon, where Spidey is Peter, and collects a trading card or Heroclix that says Spider-man is Peter. Then he picks up a Spider-Man comic, and Spidey is talking about how he’s in a situation where someone almost realized he’s Doc Ock. All kinds of things are going to run through the kid’s brain at this point (“is this the right comic?/was this part of some story from a few issues ago?/what happened to the real Peter?”), and he may go find out more or he may just put the comic down because it doesn't reflect all of the other things he’s seen about Spider-man. Now maybe the comic won’t have Doc Ock say something so obvious, and he’ll start to actually think of himself as Peter to the point where most readers won’t even notice, but then the angry fans will just feel like this was all pointless, and the newer fans won’t see Ock trying to prove himself as the “superior spider-man.” Marvel is trying to push this Marvel Now idea, where comics are more accessible without having to rely on 10 years of backstory, but this story idea defeats that purpose. Every comic with Spider-Man in it now will have readers tripping over “Doc Ock is Spider-Man” as, at least, an honorable mention.

Moreover, how will this affect future Spider-Man properties? When the next Spider-Man cartoon/movie reboot comes out in 5 or so years, will we just start off with Octavious getting bit by a radioactive Spider and watching Uncle Ben die, or will we start with Parker and then have a midseason arc that echoes ASM 700? The answer is “neither” because both of those sound ridiculous, confusing and controversial, and as long as Spider-Man is Peter in everyone’s minds, there can be no long term change to that idea. Slott and whoever else would be crazy to think that there could, which leaves the idea that this is all just to get a rise out of the readers and sell a couple more comics short term.

So since the ending happened, and it’s probably not permanent, let’s look at some easy ways to reverse and retcon this idea because in comics there’s more or less an infinite supply.

1.) The Ol’ Switcheroo. Someone suggested to me that Spider-Man could be confused, and perhaps instead of Ock with Parker’s memories and body, it’s actually Parker with Parker’s body and Ock’s memories.

2.) Clone. Someone else suggested that with the multitude of clones popping around (Iron Spiders, Scarlet Spiders), it could have been a clone of Peter that was switched while the real Peter was MIA. This also keeps Potto alive in the marvel universe, and has the potential for an actual fight and/or team up between Amazing and Superior Spider-Man.

3.) Resurrection. Mentioned earlier in this thread was that Strange, Doom, or whoever else could retrieve Parker’s soul, and restore it/put it in a clone. You also have Mephisto, who might decide to help because he has an investment in Parker. Realistically, anyone with mystical or psychic powers could immediately realize that it’s not Peter in Spider-Man’s body, and from there, the process is easy to fix.

4.) Unrelated Cosmic Event. Scarlet Witch grabs a Cosmic Cube while Sentry vibrates Franklin Richards and punches the fabric of reality or whatever as part of some huge Cosmic Marvel event, and incidentally ret-cons the entire plot of ASM 700 as well as a few other unrelated things throughout the Marvel Universe.

5.) Guilt. Doc Ock tries and fails to be the Superior Spider-Man, and when he realizes he’s not living up to his responsibilities, he brings Peter back himself.

6.) AoA. Parker from Age of Apocalypse comes in to replace….oh wait.

7.) Dead But Not Gone. The part of Parker in Ock’s mind actually starts to fight with Ock in a mentally tangible way until finally supplanting Ock completely, and restoring his mind to, more or less, it’s original state. Possibly after giving Potto split personalities and leading to more interesting stories along the way.

I’m sure there’s tons more, but I’m really just messing around trying to think of them all. Comics seem to live off of getting rises out of their fans. You have fans who will be it because they like the change, fans who will say they hate the change and won’t buy it, but still will because they like looking at car crashes, and people who won’t buy the comic because they’re tired of being jerked around. When the last category outweighs the others, we’ll see the snapback of storyline, and then they can sell more comics by doing a grand resurrection comic. Til then we just wait, and read or don't read as interest dictates.

Yeah, except for the fact that Bru is actually a good writer.

But he can focus enough to Care Bear stare Ock into having an epiphany and become a good guy



I didn't say he should do that, the part you're responding to here was simply in response to your bringing up the T-Bolts as a point of comparison.

There's none of that in ASM#700 and from what I've heard, Avenging #15.1 shows the opposite.

And what if [insert artist you used to like but ow doubt] creates something great the next time out? At this point do feel the need to give that artist any more of your money for what seems like a remote chance? That's where I am with Slott now.

I think you meant genre. If you didn't mean genre, you need to read some non-superhero comics.

This isn't going to be permanent, but that being said...

You are completely wrong, to cite three reasons: Barry Allen, Hal Jordan, and Johnny Storm (and two of those were turned over again, successfully, until Geoff Johns came along).

Dan Slott, on She-Hulk, Avengers: The Initiative, Great Lakes Avengers, The Thing, Mighty Avengers, and Amazing Spider-Man has shown me over and over and over again that he, too, is a very good writer.

oops duno if that was spamming
slott is a ####ty spidey wfriter

I just realized... Carlie is going to tell MJ... and things are going to get weird...

I cannot wait to see what happens.

To DF2099 saying Dan Slott is not a good writer... I'm curious to know what of his work upon which you base that opinion. Do you mind sharing?

I'm gonna pass. The ending was predictable, but I was hoping it wasn't going to happen. I also feel its a punch to the face to all the fans when doc and mj kissed, and if they kiss/f$$$ in the future.

I'm gonna pretend this never happened until they fix it and bring peter back.

I don't mind that he died, rather with who and how they replaced him with.

I'll give you She-Hulk (except for the last few issues). And Thing's mini was alright. Everything else, though? Terrible.

Let me put it this way; if someone put a gun to my head and said that if I didn't read the entirety of Slott's catalog of comics that they would shoot me, I'd take the bullet every time.

Edit: He's like one of the worst writers Marvel has currently. It's either him or Loeb. I can't decide because every time I try thinking about it, I blackout. I think my my brain is trying to save me.

DarkFlash, we will have to agree to disagree on that one.

Dan Slott was the only reason to even read any Avengers books over the last 8 years or so. His Avengers: The Initiative and Mighty Avengers, comics you'd rather take a bullet for rather than read, were consistently better comics than the core Avengers titles

Avengers: The Initiative and Mighty Avengers were a cluster #### and all over the place. No pacing. I pick up everything avengers and now these comics sit in the 50 cent bin at my friends comic shop.

he is a bad writer. I mean what can you go off of his ren and stimpy and carton network garbage? I just go by the spidey books that are horrible. Read Bru and Snyder and see what real writing looks like.