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In the thread he referenced it was said that a free action to make a close combat attack was different than Tail Attack's free action to make a close combat attack modifying the attack value by -1, because the latter has "bells and whistles" and the former does not, and so both free action close combat attacks would be allowed.
Hasn't it already been clarified that free attacks that come from free actions always happen?
I'm not seeing what the problem is.
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Hasn't it already been clarified that free attacks that come from free actions always happen?
I'm not seeing what the problem is.
No, they only always happen if the free action is nested inside another action. In this case, tail swipe is not nested it is independent. If the character already had a free action to make a close combat attack (flurry, charge, whatever) then they wouldn't be able to use tail swipe but for the -1 to attack it gives you.
No, they only always happen if the free action is nested inside another action. In this case, tail swipe is not nested it is independent. If the character already had a free action to make a close combat attack (flurry, charge, whatever) then they wouldn't be able to use tail swipe but for the -1 to attack it gives you.
Right. So Flurry is a Close Combat Action that gives you two attacks and Tail Swipe is a Free action that gives you an attack.
One was activated by a Close Combat action and the other by a Free Action.
Neither was activated by the same initial type of action.
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Hasn't it already been clarified that free attacks that come from free actions always happen?
I'm not seeing what the problem is.
No. It's been clarified that if you can use the power you can use all of the power, and if that means two free close combat actions leading to two "vanilla" close combat attacks that's allowed. The specific was non-free Charge and then Charge as a free action with no power or ability triggered by a close combat action: you can use both the free close combat actions to make "vanilla" close combat attacks.
This specifically is Lizard using Flurry, so he has made a close combat attack as a free action and then being able to be given a second free action to make a close combat attack via Tail Attack because the modifier in Tail Attack makes that close combat attack a different effect than the one in Flurry.
I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you.
“No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife between the shoulder blades will seriously cramp his style.”
Right. So Flurry is a Close Combat Action that gives you two attacks and Tail Swipe is a Free action that gives you an attack.
One was activated by a Close Combat action and the other by a Free Action.
Neither was activated by the same initial type of action.
No. Flurry is a close combat action to make a close combat attack and then a close combat attack as a free action. Tail Attack is a close combat attack as a free action.
I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you.
“No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife between the shoulder blades will seriously cramp his style.”
I think maybe I've just learned not to overcomplicate things since some recent new rulings.
LOL. I just want to be able to explain why the rules allow X and don't allow Y. Not "but that's not realistic" but "because it says this". And this one is causing me a headache, because I don't see the rules logic.
I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you.
“No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife between the shoulder blades will seriously cramp his style.”
LOL. I just want to be able to explain why the rules allow X and don't allow Y. Not "but that's not realistic" but "because it says this". And this one is causing me a headache, because I don't see the rules logic.
Obviously I disagreed with the lizard ruling, but if it is allowed I think you have to allow GCPD and Gordon.
LOL. I just want to be able to explain why the rules allow X and don't allow Y. Not "but that's not realistic" but "because it says this". And this one is causing me a headache, because I don't see the rules logic.
Meh. I tend to not get worked up about a lot of the crazy scenarios that people cook up.
Sometimes people come up with some crazy rules exploits that I have never seen happen in an actual tournament.
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I'm not a fan of "immediately means without resolving any allowed free actions". I think it's cleaner to think of it like this: Charge (and Running Shot) allow you the option of a combat action as a free action after you move. If you fail to break away, then you never moved because you were unable.
"I'm giving Ultraguy a power action to use Charge." OK, roll to break away.
"Oops, I failed." Then resolve the action.
"Charge says after I move I can have a close combat action as a free action: do I get to do that?" You get that after you move: were you able to move? No? Well, then...
Hypersonic Speed has the same issue: if you fail to break away you don't get the free action attack because it has to come during the movement that you can't make.
That works for Charge, Running Shot, and Hypersonic Speed, but any special power with nested free actions, that didn't happen after or during a move, also wouldn't be allowed when a break away is failed.
Actually, after thinking about it some more, I would say it could be argued that charge and running shot are just establishing an order of events, and not creating a when/if condition.
It just bothers we we go to such great lengths to say why charge gets to do it twice, but multi-attack doesn't.
If you use multi-attack to give a free action to close combat attack, you can't do it twice, but you can with charge.
I'm sure that a difference can be found and argued about, but it's entirely hindsight based explanation, that only makes sense if you know that's where you are supposed to end up.
1. Power Action to use Running Shot, i use the Free RCA to use P/PB.
2. Declare my Free RCA (Via WT) to make a Vanilla Atack.
3. Declare a Vanilla Attack (Via WT)