I disagree with two of the "overpowered" SE: Agility and It being overpowered. What because your Mech does not have them they are overpowered? I know that IT is not equally shared amongst the all the various factions and units of the game, but neither are the other plusses of the said factions. The units that have these SE are balanced out in other aspects. I just do not see these SE as being overpowered. Once again, I do not believe anyone will agree with me. However, that does not make me wrong.
If all of these proposed changes were to go into play there will be entire factions eliminated from play. Granted you will have people playing other Mechs than Arnis, but all of those Mechs will be from the same faction. Makes for exciting games, eh?

Flame away

After reading through this post, the problems that face the community pretty much boil down to everything being wrong with this game.

Unit problems

Artillery
With ranges what they are; artillery has the ability to do way too much damage with two much range, for far too little cost.

VTOL - VTOLS are the only unit that can move and shoot and are have few effective counters other then artillery.

Mech - The cost is two great for a unit that can easily be destroyed under the current rules.

Tanks – To many tanks are useless because of minimum ranges and lack of mobility

Rule Problems
Charge Attacks - To much damage

Basing - Why should a 4 point unit have the capability to nullify my entire army if it is in base contact with it.

Tank Drop - 20-inch range with a very good chance to hit.

AP - Too many units have it. Mostly too many artillery units (see artillery)

Capture - again a 4-point unit can capture my 300 Levin atlas on a "lucky roll"


All of these are easy to solve independently, but in solving one problem can cause another problem to crop up because of cause and effect.


Also, a lot of the problems with the units are not really a “problem” until multiple units of the same type are fielded. 1 SS artillery AA unit really isn’t that bad, until you get 2 3, or even 4 of them on the field. Likewise, 1 SS balac isn’t that bad, but when you have 3-4 or even 5 of them, they are difficult to counter.

WK cannot just tackle these problems one at a time and expect things to get better. Because as stated, fixing one problem might eliminate a counter for another problem. A drastic rules change should be addressed.

If you list out all of the player complaints, some solutions become pretty clear.

I know solutions are not supposed to be listed, but I cannot help but to give my input.

1 – Artillery cannot push to fire.
2 - Charge – Mechs do a 3 clicks damage on a charge (not including brawing)
3 – Mechs build up heat only under the following conditions
Running
Charge
Hit by an energy weapon (1 max per turn)
Hit by flamers
DFA
Alpha strike SEC
4 – Eliminate Basing rules as it pertains to incoming and outgoing enemy fire.
(line of sight still applies.)
5 – Tank Drop – Unit must be stated as Towed to load into a 3 capacity Transport.
6 – Capture – unit must be shut down or in salvage to be captured
(does not apply to infantry)
7 – VTOL movement per normal vehicles. (ie no move and shoot.)


Well that’s my put. These rules would drastically change the game.

IVIercy, I couldn’t say better ;) , there is only one thing I don’t agree, and that is:

You can't make all mechs to make the same damage in charge, a locust can’t do the same damage of a atlas, is true that charge make to much damage, but making all mechs to do the same damage is not the solution.

I believe if you nerf tank drop, then vtols become too powerful. Although I prefer to use infantry drop, tank drop allows you to reach the vtols that are using strafing runs to stay out of range. So, if you nerf one, you should nerf both, or another option is to give mechs a move and shoot option. That would negate a lot of the range issues. Just a thought.

Sort of interesting that with the exception of the Mega Artillery (which is interesting, since things like Anti-Pers came out with disclaimers that "Damage does not stack"... Why does it for Artillery?), all of the major problems are things that allow units to perform multiple actions at once.... Charge is just a run and a super HtH attack (all armor ignored, +1 to damage), Tankdrop allows a move and free shot at the end (yes, 2 units and 2 orders, but...).... VTOLS are a simple move and shot (shortened move, but...).... All of the things have some minor disadvantages, but for the point cost, they're pretty undervalued. Not saying I have a solution, just noting the common thread in all of the problems :)

SECs are balanced out by other factors? Hmm.

Dragons Fury. AP and IT are balanced out by short range. But wait. Now we give them one of the best 3 cap APCs. Now suddenly we just blew away their main balance point. Now that tank that was 94 points and a fairly good piece ... becomes the equivalent of an assalt mech that outranges most anything on the table, can move and shoot in 1 turn, for half the cost of a normal assault mech. Not to mention they have IT infantry with a high attack and pulse so you can do a infy-pulse-drop or super-easy capture attempt. 3 DF Shocks (at the cost of 42) = 11-13 attack (depending on rear arc bonus) with IT for capture attempts. Is it any wonder why they won Facton Wars??

I take serious issue with MANY of the complaints and fixes proposed here.

I like how warflail completely ignored the point of my post about tank drop. for 50 points, and a couple of pieces of terrain and 1 arty unit you were going to use anyway you reduce tankdrop's threat to insignificane. Tank drop can no longer legitimately be used as a factor in limiting playable figures. it doen't need fixing, It's already been fixed, and even if artillery is reduced in effectiveness, tank drop remains a useable, but not broken tactic.
IF tank drop is a problem then it's a very minor one at most and certainly not on par with dropping 9 AP pogs on someone.

I also expect when we get better PROPER AA units, we'll be seeing AA drops making a mockery of VTOL's short dials


BASING DOES NOT NEED FIXING. If as we expect/hope artillery's effectiveness is reduced, and then as you want the firing in/out of base contact rules are "fixed" you'll see a new type of turtling. the basing mechanic, as counter intuitive as you may think it is, Is one of the few mechanics in a game that smacks player 2 with damage before he can fire back, that allows someone to protect themselves and buy time to regain the initiative.

Its because most people think your totally wrong on this point. Tankdrop remains a very flexible tactic that can be difficult to impossible to counter when used with an artillery turtle. The only factors affecting tank drop playability is:

a) a lack of mechs to shoot at,
b) VTOLs perform the same function at less cost.

If these two issues get addressed, expect the tankdrop to come roaring back.

The best active defense against tankdrop is artillery. Keep the transport dodging shells. This type of artillery army is what most people want to dump.

The tank drop also breaks the realism rule. Don't add illogical and silly tactics to wargames. Most arm chair generals like a realistic feel to their games. Tankdrop is silly.

Most people think Friends is funny. I think it's facile drivel with all the humour value of orthopeadic surgery.

Most people think The Matrix was new and inventive, I thought it was old hat stuff sold to a producer who didn't know any better.

I take pride in contradicting accepted wisdom.

You accept that artillery is the most order and points effective way of dealing with tank drop. I'm not arguing that. At the moment artillery is the most points and order effective way of doing everything.

I mentioned in another thread that what makes the arty turtle so nasty is that 40 inch diameter circle of fire you have to brave before you can even consider doing something about the rain of fire from over the board. in this enviroment the harrassment tactic is less viable because the maxim can easily be freed with 60 points of artillery

I don't expect that situation to last long. when artillery is nerfed a bit ( I'm betting on wk nixing stacking, at least it evens the arty out. in comparison with each other at least, in comparison to other units, that's a differant question) it will be less easy to keep a maxim from being harrassed cheaply. when your two ss aa arty is only doing one or two damage a turn how does a tank drop deal with fa shih? it WILL be stuck for two turns with only a 12 inch range and those two turns help immensely.

I'm trying to think long term, the rules system is chaotic and the smallest change has massive effects, I'm looking for the smallest change neccessary if any change is needed at all.

IMO the thing that needs that tweak the most is this: No one should design thier army around handling any one aspect of the game.

Meaning: I shouldn't have to plan out a way to stop Arnis, tank drops, etc... I should be able to build whatever army I like and be competitive with it.

As for charges doing 3 (+brawling of course) I like it. All vehicles from Scout Hovercraft to 100 ton main battle tanks inflict 2 damage on a ram and no one has complained about that.

And to top it off armor counts against charages. Coup de grace? The mech charging takes 1 click of damage +1 click for charging a mech with heavy armor and +2 for charging a mech with hardened armor. (Reactive and Reflective does nothing extra).

Heck...I really like that. Add in the "no heat for walking regardless of pushinig" and we have almost fixed mechs over all.

I think a slight tweak to capture...only Battle Armor infantry can capture or -5 to your AV for capture...something like that.

It doesn't fix the move and shoot problem but nerf tank drop and only VTOLs can do it...and I can handle 9AV VTOL's shooting at my mechs.

I wish that we (DF) did not win Faction Wars. We will never be given credit for being good players, we always be reminded that we won simply because of (supposed) cheese. We will never be vindicated, nor shall our win ever be validated, as long as we continue to see post like this.
Sure, we have the infamous tank drop, yeah. Now how about the fact that our Mech's defense drops faster than, Anna Nicole Smith on a donut.

@ Az...

First, there are things on that list that I dont personally feel are very relevant problems. The point of this thread is to make a list, as such I've been writing down pretty much every issue I hear mentioned more than once or twice. That said, tankdrop IS an issue that I feel causes major problems, for several reasons (which I wont bother going over again, since I think everyone understands what those problems are, at this point). Sure, it can be dealt with in competitive play, but in semi-competitive formats (like Faction War) it is DOES decide games.

I'm sorry we disagree on this issue, but hey, just discussing the issue is good for the game. Let me ask you this... can you think of any significant reason to KEEP tankdrop? Like you said, it doesnt have any real effect on hardcore play, so it wouldnt hurt anything there if it were eliminated. At the same time, judging by popular response, it is NOT a well loved combo. I can think of numerous reasons it should be eliminated, and no reasons at all that it is worth keeping. Sure, I realize the game is a complex system, but you yourself just admitted that it isnt a combo that sees much play anymore. If it doesnt have any effect on the game anyway, how could it possibly hurt to eliminate it?

@ everyone...

The whole tankdrop, chargemonkeytude, and IT issues tie in as such an integral part of the DF faction that I think just the very idea of doing something about any of these aspects makes DF advocates quite nervous. I've heard people say things like "But if you eliminte tankdrop and downgrade charges, DF doesnt have any effective attacks longer than 12!!". That is absolutely correct, and IMO, how it SHOULD be. The 12" shooting range factional flavor of the DF is intended as a drawback in exchange for other good things they get. Unfortunately, since tankdrop and charges routinely attack at MUCH greater ranges than 12", the 12" range limitation is NOT in any way a significant drawback. It is supposed to be but simply isnt, hence DF units are getting a positive synergy that their point values do not reflect. I know it sucks to have your factions power adjusted downward, but I think if DF advocates are honest with themselves they will admit that they are getting very good synergy effects that they dont have to pay for in points.

Anyway, just some thoughts.

DF won the faction war not from cheese but from skilled playing. I recognize this. everyone at my venue realizes that there ARE good players in every faction, including DF out there.

now, you said earlier that agility and IT are not overpowered SEs.

Agility, here is my take on it. I agree, but i dislike minimum ranges on some units. If i am Fielding my Nikol Brahe, why should a DF spider (<100 point agility mech) be able to do 3 clicks of damage per turn to my Zeus, when it can only do one back. the minimum range is the problem i have.

to demonstrate IT, I have to first inquire about something. DO you, or any DF players on this board, ever play anything aside from DF, or do you basically field them 90+% of the time?

the reason for the above stated question is if the answer is you do not have to play anything else, or you don't play anything else, you don't know what it is like to go up against an army that DOES NOT MISS. IT is a nice little bonus for DF and it is the most powrrful SE (in my opinion). by using IT, you can roll out of a critical miss. By using IT, you can turn a miss into a hit. by using IT, you can have a better chance of succeeding with a capture. by using IT, you can basically angle the drift on your arty the way you want it.

yea, a couple other factions have it. SW, SS both come to mind, but no faction has it like DF. IT is a tough SE to go up against. since with DF it is easy to field an entire army with IT, you can watch as your opponent has everything hitting with every shot and you can barely hit. you can watch all those points you paid for defense and armor go fright out the window as your opponet tears through it with IT. It isthe most powerful SE in my opinion.

I play tankdrops every game. Not the DI schmidt, mind you. SW Padillas and partisan AA are perenial favorites. I rarely take a vehicle (or infantry) without some means to sling it forward.

Are these "tankdrops"?? If so, I would hardly call them insignificant combos.

LOL anna Nichol smith on a donut...LOL...I would have Meankitty, that was way to funny.

changing the heat build up rules for mechs goes a Long way to making them a far more viable unit in the game. IMOP. as for tanks..imagine them being able to shot at will regardless of the tiny peasent company basing its flank.

if the basing rules were as they are today, and you could shoot a unit in base contact with your unit, it might make someone thing twice about charging into the enemy front line if they everthing with an unobstructed line of fire could get a shot in on it.


heh heh heh Anna and a donut...heh heh heh good one.