ahhahahahahah

dunno i dont think it can be changed anytime soon

the reason i know why charging is odd is that DFA only takes off one extra click of damage, has plus two to the defence and you take one more damage and has single range

now any logical person who compares that to charge will understand that there is something wrong there

if they dont there is just no way of reasoning with them

Arnis is cheap but oh well, so are the Br legos
charge is broken, everyone i played at Nats agreed and that was some time ago and i dont think that we should ban arnis or change him, as they did the balac, if there are some great units out there that is just dandy, it is a collectable game and there should be some black lotuses floating around and so what if there are overpowerd units.

I've always felt that Charge & Ram should only be used:
1) As a last resort, not as a primary attack.
---I.E.: A unit is in salvage, and it's weapons are useless.
2) By units with melee weapons.
---I.E.:ICE mechs, Hatchetman, Valiant, a battering ram, etc.
BUT...
Having said that...
Ram, and Charging, should be as hard to accomplish as the "Death From Above" attack is.
And the attacker should receive more damage than they do.
(Try ramming a car with a car, the one ramming will probably get the worst of it.)
(And ICE mechs should be almost completely obliterated when charging a heavily armored unit.)
(As should a hovercraft!)
The one being attacked should have a better chance to elude it...
(Unless, of course, it's from the rear arc.)
(If you see someone charging, wouldn't you try to move out of the way, or defend yourself?)

Bad example. Cars have crumple zones in the front designed to absorb impact. Ramming has always been an effective real world technique. (Triremes anyone?)

Fortuneatly this is a game and not real life and we need to make charging a mech dangerous, but charging that tank drop fairly easy.

How do we do it? Free attack on the charger! Outlined earlier, this changes everything.

Well in CBT land, which this is not, ranged attacks took place before charging and physicals, which but that very nature could prevent a charge since a piloting roll may cause the charging unit to fall down prior to charge resolution.
Without serious modification of MWDA, I do not think you could implement such a rule. Easier would be to add +1 to defence of target mech, reduce distance to normal movement and costs 2 heat. This would give you a similar but different mechanism as DFA with similar payoffs and liabilities. The main difference is that any Mech can charge whereas only certain Mechs can DFA.
I think just plain reducing the distance you could charge would limit it enough to make charges as last ditch efforts.
If you are truly troubled by tank drop and think that charging is designed to counter it, well I do not think that is the case, however instead of one token on disembarked units, give them 2 tokens and that issue is gone.
I still think that VTOLS move and shoot needs to be addressed as well. That should have never seen the light of day.

The problem with changing the range of a charge is that it ultimately will affect the point cost of units designed to do it, making their SE MUCH less effective (evade, brawling, agility).

Not only that, but its removal will destroy the counter-tankdrop.

I've stated this many times --not just me, just trying to gather support-- but let the charger take the defender's primary damage -1 to a minimum of 1. Charges begun and ended in the rear arc or charges against shutdown mechs are business as usual, though. Why?

--Does not alter the point-cost-effectiveness of any unit.

--Still allows units with no AP to get through that armor, but now at a much greater cost to themselves.

--Still allows destruction of pesky transports. Don't you hate it when the transport gets kicked right over on top of the unit it's "towing"?

--Still allows destruction of crippled units hobbling back to the DZ.

--Eliminates all the pesky time-consuming 1/8" manuevering (and arguing) about perfect LOS (if the LOS-only rule were to be enacted.)

--Makes chargemonkeys think twice. Is it really worth knocking myself down 3-4 clicks?

--Makes the defender more likely to be able to counterattack the next turn, since charger's defense is probably lowered. In other words, the game isn't decided by one role of the dice on a successful charge in which the defender's attack rating is knocked way too low to hit the attacker, thus getting continuously pummeled for the remainder of its short life. The defender now has a fighting chance!

--Simplicity. This is the easiest fix of any mentioned. Takes no extra gameplay time and is not complicated to explain. No added modifiers to defense, etc.

The only reason I think this is better than a "free shot" is that the shot requires extra game time and possibly extra heat (possibly leading to shutdown, ammo explosion), and if the defender misses, he's in worse shape than if he hadn't fired. Not only that, let's consider: Does he get the "free shot" only if the charger starts in his firing arc? What if the charger is really close to begin with--should he still get the free shot since it's a surprise charge from close range? Endless arguments.

Truthfully, I would expect this one change to radically reduce the number of bumper-bot matches. I think it rightfully depicts the defender preparing somewhat to meet the charge without being "frozen by fear," unable to react to a mech approaching from across the field.

I hope that others will think that this is a sensible and practical solution, and if it's not, give valid reason so that I may be enlightened.

I think just giving the target of a charge a +2 to their defense, à la death from above, would help discourage its overuse and would turn it much more into the option of last resort that it seems it should be.

Okay, lets look at the various propositions and how they would effect the game.

1/ Reducing charge range to your "walk" speed: This would nerf charging mechs against tank drops. It also brings up some debate with mechs that have Evade

2/ Adding to the defense of the defender: This could work, but it would make some higher defense Mechs effectively "unchargable". It would also go against the possibility of a charge being used as a "last ditch attack" since damaged mechs already have lowered attack values. Also, this would unbalance DFA attacks since they would share the attack value, but without the heat penalty.

3/ Making the run speed of mechs = to 1.5 times your walk speed. This doesnt deter some faster mechs like Arnis, it also makes for added math during a game.

4/ Allowing the defender to place the attacker after a missed charge: I like this one. It penalizes the attacker for rolling badly, but after taking all that heat, do we really nead to rub it in?

5/ Allowing the defender a "free ranged shot" with a click of heat before the attack lands: I like this one too! A rule like this would reward the charger with higher defense, and charging an assault mech would be potential suicide. This would also make for some memorable nail-biting moments! This would still keep Arnis a "charge-monkey" however, with his 22def against that ranged shot.

6/ Delegating a "fixed" damage amount for charge, like the fixed 2 damage for a ram: So a 20ton Locust charges for the same damage as a 100ton Atlas? No.

7/ Making it 2 clicks of heat minimum. This overcosts the Evade special ability. It also discourages factions with lesser heat dials from charging.

8/ Making charge effective only if the target is LOS and in your front arc: Now we're talking! The guys at my venue actually thought THIS WAS THE RULE earlier in game! The "drunken charge" is unrealistic and it reduces the effect of terrain. This rule is easy to implement and easy to understand

9/ Allowing armor SE to be effective against charge. This sounds good at first, but again it makes charge less useful as a "last ditch effort".

10/ Any "special formula" that requires basing damage or attack value on point valure, inches moved, day of the week, etc. ANY RULE that requires fancy "calculatin'" or would slow down the game in any way would be useless.

Remember... We don't want to nerf charging, we don't want complete realism, we don't even want to change it that much, WE JUST WANT BALANCE AND SIMPLICITY!

hey remember don't give WK to much options
it end up using all

eg:
infiltrate

first turn imunity is enough to fix it but they still put the 1 x speed on mech and vehicle =(

I like 5 and 2 :) but do not forget you do the same Damage you do to the Target :)

Strange proposal for leveling and changing the Charge rule, taking point cost (as opposed to tonnage) into account:

Multiply the point cost of the Charging mech by 2. Divide by 100. Round to nearest integer (.5 or > round up) and add 1 for base Charge damage amount.

Example #1 Mavis Morgan 114 pts x2 = 228/100 =2.28 i.e. 2 damage +1 for Charge = 3 total (reduced by 1 damage from current)
Example #2 BR Legionaire 119 pts x2 = 238/100 =2.38 i.e. 2 damage +1 for Brawling SE +1 damage for Charge = 4 total (reduced by 2 damage from current)
Example #3 Danni Haag = 129 pts x2 = 2.58 i.e. 3 damage +1 Charge = 4 total (no change)
Example #4 A. Kirasawa 142 pts x2 = 284/100 = 2.84 i.e. 3 damage +1 for Charge = 4 total (no change)
Example #5 Arnis Drummond 160 pts x2 = 320/100 = 3.20 i.e. 3 damage +1 Charge = 4 total (reduced by 1 damage from current)
Example #6 Stefani Ehli 204 pts x2 = 408/100 = 4.08 i.e. 4 damage +1 Charge = 5 total (reduced by 1 damage from current)
Example #7 Barry Segal 235 pts x2 = 470/100 = 4.70 i.e. 5 damage +1 Brawling +1 for Charge = 7 total (no change)
Example #8 Clyde Joyce 251 pts x2 = 502/100 = 5.02 i.e. 5 damage +1 Brawling +1 for Charge = 7 total (no change)
Example #9 Inova Wolf 277pts x2 = 554/100 = 5.54 i.e. 6 damage +1 for Charge = 7 damage (increase by 1 at SW sweet-spot; increase by 2 at starting damage but low attack value =8...)
Example #10 Dominic Voeller 283 x2 = 566/100 =5.66 i.e. 6 damage +1 for Charge = 7 damage (increase by 1 from current, but suffers from 12" charge range typical of assault mechs)
Example #11 Paladin Jonah Levin 300x2 = 600/100 =6.00 i.e. 6 damage +1 for Charge = 7 damage (increase by 2 from current, buy shouldn't that be the case for the most expensive costing mech?)

Charge 'specialist' mechs already have two benefits perhaps not accounted for in WK's point cost formula [simply because there is no printed "Charge" slot on the dial...]:
1. Primary attack is a 'move/shoot' action. Inherently providing first strike capability and conservation of orders.
2. Charge negates ALL armor (and thus all of the point cost associated with said armor, and making Agility higher value).

Associating Charge damage amount with point cost may level the "Charging" field for like-costed mechs (exceptions: Mechs with SEs agility, evade, brawling would have point cost formula justified advantages....)

Sorry for the long ramble...

what annoys me most is that Wizkids doesn't put much thought into playtesting and considering players' opinions BEFORE the units are released. of course they can't ask publicly what people thought of so and so, but they could get a few people and ask them.

i really like mechs being powerful, i joined the game expecting mech battles, but i'm not averse to adapting to succeed. it can be annoying to buy something for a high price and then later it gets nerfed. i'm thinking of getting an arnis, but now this. wtf.

bottom line: do this before the units come out, dammit.

wow Ravenkh, you summed up things pretty well. I hope people take the time to read it.

Now, everytime I see a discussion on what to do about charging I mention this:

Make charging like a ranged combat attack; if you do not have line of sight then the defender gets +3 to their defense. Units with electronic camoflauge cannot be charged if you don not have line of sight.

It only makes sense that it's easier to charge straight onto a mech than to run around something into one. As for the electronic camoflauge, you can't shoot at the unit cause you don't have a clue where it's at so why would you charge blindly around a wall. this fix uses a mechanic allready that is used in the game so there's no extra math. Also it makes charging alot harder to do without making it almost pointless to do (Death from above anyone?)

mayb someone else have thought of this but a good friend of mine (nanhold) came with an idea for a sort of roll for if the pilot is willing to charge, on a 4+ it will go , or even 1, 2 unsuccesfull opponent may fire at charger while it stays and misses target, 34, opponent gets to fire back, 5,6 suprises opponent and deals either primary or melee damage. or with 1 ,2 it deals itself 2 clicks for stumbling , with no damage 3, 4 one click and lets say 2 damage to opponent, 5,6 no damage to it self and printed damage to target (wonders if he s making any sense,)

other option is to limit charge to melee attack mechs and only use that printed ability , while not ignoring the heavy or hardened armor and other se (a unit with evade can throw like break away to evade the charge if succesful charger receives 2 clicks)

these are just some ideas i came up with, dont know if they would work but the intent is to make charging less efficient and more chances of getting damage is failing

First of all, running should only be 1.5 times your movement. Being able to run further than you could shoot in most cases never sat well with me. Second, the charger should take half the damage of the charge rounded up. And thirdly, you should only be able to charge what you have straight line of sight to. none of this charging around a building stuff.

I like the attack of oppotunity but what if your charged by mech A and you get you attacked and based.
Now here comes mech B, can you shoot out of the close combat and get your oppotunity fire? Disadvantage?
If yes you have now taken 2 more heat.
Oh OH mech C comes charging in, can you get your oppotunity fire again? and disadvantage, you have 2 mechs in base with you before the third? 3 heat now...

LET THE ICE MECHS OWN THE WORLD...