RobRobBinks:

If you read the entire thread you will know that it is pretty much impossible to get a first turn kill. Second turn maybe, but not a first turn.
I'm not sure you want to agree with someone who doesn't play about something that isn't correct, but that's up to you.

why not demand changes if something is not balanced? it's one way the game company can realize that something they may have missed is not balanced. complaining (well, if done constructively) can be an instrument for change...

Complaining is (sometimes) a way to get a change. Pissing and moaning every time you see something you don't like is NOT a way to make a positive change.

I can assure you that, if not for the Spirit Armor, people would be doubled over with stomach cramps over something else, like Storm Maul or something. How about the minority of players who don't hit the Forums that often and miss out on the Relic 5-Pack. All of the sudden, there will be a couple of people who are irate over that exclusiveness and say those are too powerful.

I...................nevermind. I just realized that this is a pointless thread entirely. It's your prerogative to believe that any particular piece in the game is broken and my only obvious comfort is the fact that I know that, if there really is a problem, it will get fixed with or without the Realmers.

why demand change if i can just sit on my ### instead.

3-2-1, 1-2-3, what, the heck, is bothering me?

Actually Parasite, that last post has been the only point of sanity in this thread. Here we have two sides who are so certain that they are right and the other wrong that won't even listen. Merely quote.

So mods, please just close this thread. Yes, it is true that no insulting words were exchanged, but it serves absolutely no purpose than two make both parties feel good about themselves.

Dimitri

Wow, big difference.
Game over in 3 minutes instead of 1 minute.
That leaves you with only 47 minutes to grab a soda instead of 49.

A game that can be finished THIS FAST, on a CONSISTENT basis, stops being a strategy game , but turns into a COMBO game.
"Strategy" involves TWO players.
"Combo" involves only ONE player, the second one doesn't matter.

I don't play anymore.
But I used to play before, and I think I wasn't bad at it.
You make it sound as if someone who stops playing football all of a sudden doesn't know the difference anymore between a basketball and a football.

You can give me as many nice explanations as you want
but I'll tell you 1 thing :
a strategy game that is (basically) decided in 1 (or 2 for you) tuns is NOT A GOOD AND HEALTHY GAME.

A good and healthy game IMO is a game where each player has a CHANCE, to deploy his strategy, to make strategic moves to try to get the upper hand and to still have a chance of turning the tide even after a setback.

Even without playing, just based on my own logic sense and on the arguments I've read from many other sensible posters here, I think it is safe to say that the current game does not leave you with a high win percentage chance after you've been hit with a well executed K-Bow or SA hit.

So,
come-back chances : very slim
strategic moves : very few, (over in 1 or 2 turns - rest is clean-up)

I'm sorry, but I can still come to only 1 verdict :
the game is in bad shape.

------------------------------------------------------------

PS
RobRob, nice to see you're still on my tail ;)
you're even starting to see the light, I'll be darned :D

Yeah, that fix will be called MK3.

Are you on WK's payroll ?
You sure sound like it.
Why some people are willing to buy just EVERYTHING that WK puts in a box, is beyond me.
From my perspective, you just don't have the ability to distinguish #### from quality.

On the bright side, the new figures do look purdy.

TikTak:

They might as well be banned. Any tournament where there is a chance of Zeph+Spirit armor being played they are unable to be played with any hope of winning.

Worthless? Spirit Armor still gives bonuses that easily warrant it's 40 point cost. Yes, comparing to crown of Khamsin it's a little overcosted. I'd say it's around 5 points overcosted. However, you cannot use CoK as a substitute for spirit armor. Spirit armor enhances EL units, CoK enhances BPR. IF you want to enhance EL figures, you have to use Spirit Armor. Right now, IMO the EL has much better figures to enhance then the BPR.


Put a damper on the use of certain uniques? Anywhere where Spirit Armor is likely to be played it pretty much bans the use of any unique with a relic that's over 120 points. That's almost all the non LEs, when they're equipped with a relic.

And there is a good many that gain a huge +2 damage bonus AND a +2 attack bonus for 30 points!!! Maybe you should stop looking at the figures that don't gain much from it, and look at the figures that gain a lot from it. There are a lot of them. It can turn even the weakest unique archer guy into a heavy hitting damage dealing machine for just 30 points.

And now, instead of deciding if we want to do this ourselves, we're pretty much forced to do this if we want to win. We CANNOT use a big figure in tournament play right now and expect to have a prayer of winning because it can be killed on the second turn with no attack roll needed. I won't even have a chance to stop it like the K-Bow.

Oh yay! Another example you use where the army sucks because you just so happen to have the perfect domain with you that will completely screw up his army. Give me your whole army and i'll find the perfect domain to screw it over so Spirit Armor will crush it.

With the bonus damage the elves would be able to kill the few orcs that outnumber them.

Uh... have you even LOOKED at thread cutter? First thing you should notice, -2 speed. Zurgan is moving at an extremely slow 6". Second thing you should notic, when he dies, all the figures of the chosen name heal to full. It wouldn't be too hard to kill Zurgan, healing all those little elves back to full.

LOL! You target my Zeph, I target another of your figures, your Zeph dies killing mine, which kills the other figure I targeted. You're down on quite a bit of points. That's not even a counter to spirit armor, just stupidity.

Ram, trample, venom, all will kill chroma with little problem. Even if you have none of that, you can still beat her if you get lucky at least. The same can't be said about pumped Chroma vs Spirit Armor.

It's built around the bonuses because it's the smart thing to do. I gain these bonuses from spirit armor, why not use them? You seem to assume i'm building around the suicide effect, which would be stupid. It's not the thing you build around, it's the thing you use when there's a good chance to use it. Because of the suicide capability my opponent can't play any figures over 100 points or build his army around a single figure.


Please, tell me what of mine is so wild. I have another EL unique and a couple Snow Maidens. Unlike yours, I do not have a high complicated combo that revolves around two unique/relic combos and a lot of luck revolving terrain placement. All mine revolves around is killing you with my pumped up EL figures and suiciding if I need to(using my kierien or high elven knight to pick up Spirit Armor again).

SAME TO YOU!!! You have ONE storm gale! Are you going to use it to stop a couple snow maidens? Or use it to stop someone like Rava? Why do you get to play a domain that will screw over my army but I can't play anything to counter it?


Oh, and you keep saying how we are saying it needs to be banned. I have not seen anyone here saying it needs to be banned, only changed. I don't want it to be banned, I like Spirirt Armor. I just don't like that a 95 point combo can auto kill anything with barely any counters and no roll required. I believe I did say on another thread that I would prefer it be banned then stay the way it is though.


Gunmix:

Whoah, capturing is a lot different then killing. First, you have to spend two turns capturing and kill the guy, instead of just one killing him. That ties a figure up for quite a while.
Second, you need the sword to do that. IF you don't have a sword in capturing range it won't work. Third, you have to capture him in close combat. You can't shoot him to death.
Fourth, he gets +3 defense. It's not a big deal to stronger figures when his defense it so low, but figures with 7 or 8 attack who could easily finish him off by killing have to capture instead which requires a much higher roll. It would still be a threat since capturing, especially late in the game, is now always possible and most of the time a lot harder to do.

I am in the Bizarro World.....

Mighty Borg and his trusty (if hapless) sidekick RobRobBinks, making the Realms sane for the troubled!

On a non related tangent, what HAVE you been doing, Borg? You playing Warmachines? It seems to be the new hotness around here...

I seem to be n WizKids payroll? Wow, news to me. Taxes must be taking a huge chunk of my paycheck, seeing as I get practically nothing at all from my volunteer work.

As for not having "the ability to distinguish #### from quality
," I'm afraid I don't know what you're talking about. I never said that Spirit Armor was great. I certainly don't think it discounts or demeans any other piece in the set, but I never said it was solid gold.

I'm not standing on either side of the "Spirit Armor Ruined MK For Me VS Spirit Armor Changes Nothing, Shut Up" debate. I'm kind of my own tangent, lurking in the realms of "Both Of You Shut Up And Perhaps Read A Book."

Actually it is a very big difference, for two reasons.
First and foremost it establishes that the debate is not being carried on in a legitimate fashion by one side. As long as the entire thing is presented as a "First Turn Kill", with the added assumption that such a kill also leads to always winning the game, you have a situation where the real issue is going to constantly be lost in that image.
The game is not automatically over just because a single figure on one side can be destroyed on the first or second turn by a single figure on the other side. Absolutely no evidence has been offered in support of that, merely a limited number of examples of a figure worth 2-3 more times that of the figure that is suicided being destroyed.
Second, it completely ignores every other aspect of play that can affect this, specifically including both the reciprocal nature of the technique, as well as alternative army building strategies that do not rely on a single figure that is one-half to two-thirds of your total army.

You may still know the difference between a basketball and a football, but you very obviously no longer understand the strategy and tactics involved in MK.
The strategies and tactics of all sports constantly evolve over time. What works today is not guaranteed to work tomorrow. The way people played baseball and football in 1900 is not the way they played it in 1950, or the way they played it in 2000, and won't be the way they play it in 2050. Whoever heard of a Closer or a DH back then? Who knew about a forward pass when football began?

And this is where your absence from the game and its evolving strategies shows.
A single death on the first turn or two does not decide the game any more.

And again, that exists in MK.

The problem is, your logical sense is corrupted by flawed input. It doesn't matter how good your theory is if your assumptions are wrong. Just as with computers, GIGO.

Since your assumptions are not true your verdict is worthless.
Go and acquire some legitimate data, from both first hand observation and experience, and then offer an analysis.

Ah, I see.
Anybody who disagrees with you must be getting paid to do so.
Even if your arguments had any validity, you have totally discredited yourself with such a blatant, and rather weak, ad hominem attack.

No.
Any game they play Zeph + Spirit they don't have much hope of winning. Unless the tournament is single elimination, that is not guaranteed. And indeed, even with single elimination it is not guaranteed, as they may not face such an army in the first round.

Yes, worthless.
You want to strip a power from the relic. That diminishes the power of the relic no matter how you look at it. I can kill any of those figures by rolling a crit with Decapitator. Should we also demand that Decapitator only works against figures of equal or lower value to prevent such an occurence? If not, then your argument is biased from the start.

IF everyone has it.
IF everyone always builds an army with it.
IF everyone always has Zeph so they can use it for 78 pts.
IF everyone always suicides with it.
IF everyone never wants to use those other bonuses you say are so awesome.

On that score, I now demand that Threadcutter be banned because it can be put on Zurgan, who costs only 32 points, and destroy Swarm armies so cheaply.

Do they have the range? Do they have the attack value? Do they lose Bombardment to get it?
Or will they just have to move up to range, then sit there as targets for a Surge, and have to push to get an attack off before they are jumped?
Sure some figures gain a lot from K-Bow. That is balanced by the restrictions on them in the first place. On the figures which have Bound that massively benefit from it, no one is suggesting major suicide tactics.

Speak for yourself only please. I have seen no evidence of this as of yet, and do not expect to have serious trouble with the tactic myself. I see no reason why a newly released figure should be altered before it is even legal to play (or now has been legal to play for less than a week) just because one or two people don't think they can beat it, or are annoyed that their favorite Unique is going to be at a disadvantage.

Give that so far all of your examples have assumed a perfect build on your part to destroy whatever I play, that is precisely what that is. As long as all your examples are so one sided, all my responses will be likewise.
Yes, I admit it. You can always win if your army is designed specifically to trash mine, while mine is designed to be specifically vulnerable to yours. Since army construction is secret until an event begins, you have just managed to invalidate all of your own examples.

Assuming the orcs just stand there and take it of course.

Unless they are already dead.
Let's see . . . Smite on 3 Elven Warriors together. 2 Damage on each. 6 Damage total to every one of them on the field. Which means every last one of them is now Demoralized. One more hit and they are all gone. A formation of 4 and they are dead immediately.

I meant that as target the opposing Zeph for death and take the loss on your own army, not make him the focus of your Spirit Armor. You keep your Zeph alive and eat his army up with the bonuses you still have that he has lost. Instead you link your Spirit Armor to any secondary user of Spirit Armor for your opponent. That way he can only use his once.

Little problem? Really? For a figure with 11" Charge and 4 Damage? I doubt that.
And luck instead of skill for a win. I thought that was bad thing?

Given that this whole complaint is based on Spirit Armor being used solely for its suicide effect, I really have no idea what you would be thinking at this point. Now that I've thoroughly exploded the first/second/whatever turn suicide destruction, you now want to assert that the bonuses it gives to an army are too powerful.
Just how many different assumptions do you want me to refute here?

Well, first you assume you are going first. Then you assume you have terrain placed to your benefit. Then you assume I have a high cost figure to give you an advantage from suiciding. Then you assume I am not using Spirit Armor myself so I can suicide and kill your Kierin or High Elven Knight so you can't do it to me twice. Then you assume my Domains can't counter you. Then you assume all your Domains can counter mine. Then you assume all armies you will face in the tournament are identical to mine. Then you assume they all use their Domains that can stop you before you need to counter them.

Wait, so now you only have a couple of Snow Maidens?
And I can have both a Mountain Pass and a Storm Gale. I can use the one against you and save the Storm Gale.
But really, I don't have to worry about Rava. You see, you are bringing Zeph and Spirit Armor, and everyone knows that, so nobody will be bringing Rava because of that.

You want the originally released version banned. You want a specific use of it banned. That is banned. And without the figure even being played yet. You are just assuming, based on a tactic you say will not be the focal point of your own use of the relic, that it is broken and needs to be changed before anyone ever uses it.

Spirit armor has made my all Solonavi army worthless since Varatrix is the only unique besides Vexthia thats legal and Trix alone is a 156pt investment without a relic.

blah, blah, blah

this could and might go on forever.

Please weigh in with this simple question.

Spirit Armor is great, but it would not be great if it costed 250 points. As it is now, Spirit Armor is too good for 40 points, so I ask you, what should the point value be?

At what point value is Spirit Armor not overpowered?