I'm just going to interrupt this conversation here, to toss in my point.

Yes, you can rig a deck, if you are a high calibre player.

Vs. teams often playtest decks, against other types of decks, to see how they stand up to hem. In doing that, they get to know the contents of certain decks very well.

So, at the next PCQ, they shuffle the deck, with the classic "bottom look" shuffle. Peeking at a few cards will usually give away the theme of the whole deck. Continue to shuffle a bit more until you see a ey card at the bottom, slice the deck into itself a few more tis, and you can bury a good card or two at the bottom, like a key 5-6 drop.

Just a theory, I've seen it before. It can be done. It may not be game breaking, but it will give you an edge.

Hardly.

Let me try this again:

Did you or did you not see him look at your cards as he shuffled?

You misread....my statement ("So let's keep the ridiculous event of YuGiOh out of it") is applicible to your "this would be more of an issue in yugioh as most of the good cards are limited to one per deck."

The ridiculous event is not YuGiOh itself, but rather a player being so brazen as to look at your cards as he shuffles your deck, which you claim is an issue in YuGiOh (due to one per deck limits).


Again, I was not saying YuGiOh was ridiculous.

No, your analogy doesn't make sense because it's not analogous to the situation.

If a cheater = murder, then cheating = murder. So saying "Mr Cheater, don't cheat because it's against the rules." would be "Mr Murderer, don't murder because it's against the law."

That is not at all what I said.

You said this: I have personally witnessed this. He will get your good cards at the middle of the deck.

I say: If you are paying attention, this is impossible. It is only doable if they are looking at your cards while they shuffle, which you should notice if you are a good player.

It will never be obvious after the match, unless you are "looking back" in your memories, in which case you saw him and should have called him on it.

You can't just look through your deck and say "Hey! My Savage Beatdown was in the middle! He cheated!"

Haha.

I'll be the one cheated out of less money, since all I'm saying is "Watch when your opponent shuffles your deck, and if he looks at your cards, call a judge."

All your saying is "Roy put my good cards in the middle!"

I'm pretty sure this isn't a VS forum. I think the topic is baseball.

Barry Bonds invited Gary Sheffield to spend some time in the offseason working out with him a few years ago. Sheffield quit after awhile because it was too hard. He didn't want to get up at 6 A.M. every day of the offseason and work out for 4 or 5 hours. Plus he and Bonds are both obnoxious and bickered like old ladies. But mostly he quit because Bonds's workout was too intense for him.

i will happily admit that there is a fair chance barry knew some of the things he did were somewhat questionable, if not out right against the rules.

but to say that an athelete will always be completely aware of everything going into their bodies is probably a bit of a stretch.

1. Olympic athletes are routinely disqualified for testing positive for stuff that was just in cough syrup or something, they also have trainers. If i'm in torino, and I have to ski the next morning, and I've got the flu, i'm gonna go to the local drugstore and by the italian version of theraflu, cause I MUST sleep and compete in the morning. Am I going wake up the trainer who probably doesn't read italian and make him go down to the drugstore with me?, maybe, maybe not. I admit I probably should though.

2. I'm Asian. I have been using Tiger Balm(like ICy hot or ben gay) my whole effin life. Some asians use it for everything, from headaches to colds to bruises to mosquito bites. If i were going into the NFL combine, and got a mosquito bite there, I would use it without checking w/anyone anything despite knowing that I'll get tested.

3. Athletes, although generally are gifted with a particular talent and are hard-working are not always the smart or particularly well educated. If Puff Daddy's trainer tells Kwame Brown he needs some Cambodian Breast Milk to jump two inches higher, he's gonna do it.

That being said, if I'm paying a guy $200k per year and he has a masters in physical therapy/fitness/health to be in charge of my health, i'm going to be inclined to listen to him and trust his opinion. I can see a conversation going like this very, very easily:

Greg Anderson: Hey Barry, great workout today, we've got this new muscle relaxant from X pharmaceutical, its called adoinvdadofjadslkdfaofij. It's kind of experimental, but its supposed to be really good.

Barry: WHat exactly does it do?

Greg: It warms and relaxes your muscles, allowing you to be more comfortable, and recover a little faster. It's similar to a steroid, but I can assure you it's not.

Barry: And your sure it won't turn up positive as any kind of any banned substance?

Greg: I'm sure Barry, the HGH went ok right? you can trust me. We're playing the line, but we're NOT cheating.

Barry: Ok, I'll try it.

I'm not saying it went like that, but that isn't so hard to believe is it? What is he going to do, read the label and look in the pharmaceutical dictionary? Or grab a sample and take it to the FDA or MLB?

As for the taking the money and cashing out, maybe the process isn't perfected and hasn't worked with other clients the way it worked with bonds, or still very experimental, or worse yet, is easily reproducible and impossible to make money off of. It could be something stupid like 25 upside one armed pushups and a bowl cooked nightcrawlers every night.

Or he might have genuine loyalty to barry bonds. But don't worry, despite the fact that I believe in innocence until proven guilt, I certainly agree that it looks atrocious and its possible that they are all cheaters and possibly criminals.

Let's see where you're going with this...



Right, and most decks are very similar to decks posted online, so it's very easy to have an idea of what you're playing against if you see a card or two...

Yes! Exactly what I'm saying.

But if you hand them your deck face down, then watch them, you can ensure they don't get away with this behavior. They will have to flip the deck to shuffle it "bottom's up," and you can ask them not to shuffle that way.

And if you don't ask them to do that, then you are letting them cheat.

At least Flashback gets what I'm saying.

The wow was directed at Jeff Mop, who doesn't seem to realize you can control the cheating against you to a large extent.

Especially the form he claimed.

I don't mind YuGiOh, as I said in my reply to him, and it came out harsher (to others) than I intended. If he's describing a specific form of cheating that can only take place in YuGiOh, however, then I was right when I said "This kind of cheating is impossible," since no context of YuGiOh was given.

I don't know how anyone cheats at YuGiOh, or how to prevent them from doing so. I can speak for how to stop cheating at Vs.

Ah, but it is you who doesn't get what I'm saying. The "bottom look shuffle" is a standard face down shufle, done at exactly 90 degrees to the table, straingth up and down, with the standard check shuffle (shuffle part of the deck over the top, over and over), when the last part of the deck it tossed to the top, a quick flick of the wrist to pick up the bottom half of the deck over the top again, allows the player to see the bottom card, noncholantly.

If you see a card you don't want them to have, instead of shuffling the same way, you immediately slice (push one half of the deck into the other half) the deck together, forcing the "seen" card towards the bottom of the deck, BUT not the very bottom.. Repeat the cut, peek at the new bottom card again. Continue slicing the deck, and the "seen" card the first time will remain near the bottom 1/4 of the deck. Soon, you'll have seen 3-4 cards you don't want in their opening/future hand, and then you do a small cut on the top (10 cards), and pass it over.

THAT is a "bottom look shuffle", used by Magician's, Card Sharks, and Cheaters everywhere.

Um, that's exactly what I imagined Flash...

'cept you said the deck was FACE UP in your hand.

I can do it face down or face up...doesn't matter.

I'm not naming names, but this seems pretty consistent with some 'teams' apparently. I had one guy of a team start shuffling my deck and 'accidentally' drop a card or two. he looked at them, then called initiative. I called a judge on him, but the judge said that we couldn't do anything about it.

Given his deck choice, I'm sure that he would have called the same initiative, but in any case, mis-shuffling should carry bigger penalties, especially when an opponent has an advance knowledge of the contents of your deck.

And THAT is what was done. It was used both ways - both instances, the card that was relevant ended up at the bottom of the deck in the middle of the shuffling. When it was his deck, he manipulated the shuffle to get that bottom card to end up on top and then convienently "forgot" to offer his opponent his chance to cut, hoping the opponent would not remember. If it was the opponent's deck, he gets the relevant card and shuffles to get it on the bottom, and then just half-cuts the deck so it's not in the middle.

I don't see how this is "impossible" - as flashback said, it's fairly common among card cheaters.

Kairos is absolutely correct that you should be paying close attention to your opponent at all times, especially if you suspect said opponent of cheating. The only constants in a given match are you and your opponent. You cannot rely on a judge or other witness to be there at any given moment. If an opponent gets away with cheating, whether you didn't see it, or just didn't call it out, especially simple-to-follow cheating like a bottom look shuffle, it is ultimately your responsibility (and the dirty cheater's responsibility, of course, but what does he care; He got away with it).

Most cheating is accomplished through distraction (misdirection for magicians). Don't let anything your opponent says or does distract you, and keep your eyes on his hands and his cards in play. The same is true of magic tricks. If you allow yourself to be distracted by the misdirection, and lose track of the focus of the trick, you'll miss it.

If you can, try to keep track of everything in your head as well, so you know exactly how the game played out from the shuffle.

When I'm playing in a tournament environment, I do not look up from what is happening on the board, and my opponent's deck and hand for most of the game. Yes, that means that I will not be looking a person in the eyes for the vast majority of the actual game. It's not personal, and I'll be very personable before and after the match, but during? Nope, thanks to my Magic tourney experience, my mind is on the game. Just play, be congenial, and concentrate.

Woah, don't lump me in with cheaters. I do it for magic tricks purely!

Ah, I'm not sure what I was implying (maybe just trying to make the fact that they were looking clear)...

I've seen people try to pull what you describe (and I'm quite certain you're not a cheater), but as long as you're being vigilent, you can notice.

And against someone with a Roy-putation, you should be vigilent.

LOL
interwiev to karl horn?
obviously karl said what he likes people to know....
as i heard from players also horn did many errors like declaring wrong number of cards in hand and other things...but he don't even get a warning for this.
c'mon...that's not fair
all makes think that somehow america is kinda protectionist of his events....you don't want a foreign player win an event in the u.s.a.