Hi guys and gals, I wondered if I could get your take on an issue.

We have all heard the complaints and defenses given about outwit and the power that can come to a team from using it. My question is why is outwit a free power and barrier is not?

Do you think that barrier could/ would be more useful/ used if it was a free power? Ie. you could move and then throw up a barrier. You could attack and then throw up a barrier. Basically treating it like Outwit.

I really think that alot of the issues that people have with outwit and perplex could be rectified without having to change those powers if you were to give a boost to the barrier power. Imagine the defensive and strategic possibilities that you could use/ devise if barrier and smoke cloud were free powers that did not cost a token.

I also think you would see an influx of lower point figs with these powers that could really start to make a difference on teams.

In a three hundred point game you could barrier and still attack three times.

Even if wizkids made the change that the barrier is a free action (character does not take a token for making a barrier/ smoke cloud), yet the piece that uses barrier may not perform an attack for the turn.

Ie. you can move and place a barrier, you have to take a token for the move, but not for the barrier.

You could also place a barrier and NOT move...and that would not cost a token to the person that placed the barrier but they are also NOT able to make an attack that round.

How do you all weigh in on this? I am just curious. To me it just seems that barrier and smoke cloud do not get used very much because it takes a token to use them. Make them free powers like outwit, and I think you start to add alot of strategy to the game.

Thanks and I look forward to reading your responses.

Barrier is effective the way it is. How slow do you think the game would go if barrier was free and on lower point figs? It's bad enough being stuck indoors with your big gun being immobilized by 2 avalances and a pyro. The 3 of them can barrier a guy up every turn and not worry about KC Supes, Vet Ultimate Cap etc...they are immobilized if a fig can get in and put 4 squares of barrier around them on an indoor map.

I love barrier....not because I'm trying to be different or because it doesn't get enough credit but because so few people expect it or see it used well in tourny play. This power has won me some of my most recent LEs.

Anyway, this is a good idea if your with the side that despises Outwit and Perplex. I must say that I am not with that side but if Barrier didn't require a power action then I would be very very happy.

I think the thought behind it is this:
Barrier is a power (mutant or otherwise) that the comic character must concentrate to create thus it is an action in clix. Perplex is not an action but how a person looks or acts so it is a free action in clix. Outwit is not an action as it is mind power. In comics Batman can easily do this on the run without having to stop and concentrate on it.
COurse, that is just my two cents.

Hey All,
Barrier simply has to take an action to use. The "free" powers arise from non-attack related abilities on the damage section of the dial. Outwit, Leadership, Enhancement, and Perplex arise from elements of the mind and spirit that would never take excersion to perform.
Example:
1.Batman points out that Superman is a ninny, thereby negating his Impervious, and Green Arrow shoots the Blue Boyscout to proverbial Kingdom Come (where he will finally be invulnerable to everything, including magic, and will not have to worry about growing a pair).
2. Iceman/Firelord/Pyro/Blizzard/Eclipso creates a barrier comprised of their element by concentrating an appropriate amount into one area.

#1 takes no action, Batman just does it. He can very well strike Superman on his own moments after Green Arrow hits.
#2 requires creation and implementation, probably makes them break a sweat, and thus denotes action.

Fortunately, Barrier is still a total Rock N' Roll power. My best friend drives me crazy with it. It remains even if the power is lost unlike Outwit, so there are advantages and disadvantages to both (and ALL) powers.

Actually i had the understanding that barrier ceased if the power was lost on the fig that had produced the barrier.

I can see where the argument comes from that perplex, outwit, leadership, ect. are not attacking/ damage causing powers but only from a certain view.

Barrier and smoke cloud do NOT cause damage to a fig.

Outwit can LEAD to MAJR damage being done to a fig.
Perplex (given enough) can cause MAJOR damage to a fig.
Leadership gives the opportunity to attack an additional time there for causing damage to a fig.

Barrier and Smoke cloud are totally defensive minded powers, and I really have a hard time seeing how it would be bad to make them free.

And to those that say that multiple barrier figs can keep your Supes and such out of the game, what about Outwit? You are saying that a free action that completely negates your bricks defensive powers and makes him vulnerable to take a full 8 clicks of damage from a mediocre superstrength fig ( 3 base damage + 3 perplexers + heavy object + outwit to cancel power) is better? We all have to keep out of range of 10 range in outwit.....you mean to tell me that you cannot keep supes out of range of a six or four range barrier/ smoke piece?

I think that would overpower it a bit, especially compared to some powers like Incapacitate. It is a relatively cheap power now, so it would be used all over the place. Imagine how frustrating it would be to face someone who had four or five Barriers for free every turn.... you'd never be able to move, especially on an indoor map.

It has some possibilities for Smoke Cloud. I can see Batman, Robin, or one of their enemies laying down some smoke and then leap/climbing away... right now you have to have two figures to pull something like that.

Can't KC Supes hit the barrier and keep moving?

What about making it a free power with a catch.

to place the barrier you have to roll 1 six sided dice. If you roll a 1 or 2 or 3 the barrier cannot be made. On a 4,5 or 6 the barrier is successful.

You could even give it the regen sort of wording. attempt to make a barrier. Roll 1 6 sided dice. subtract two from the number that is rolled and this is the amount of barrier pieces that can be laid.

The action is still FREE but you may only end up being able to lay down 1 barier piece as apposed to all four. and there is a chance that you may not be able to place the barrier at all.

That tones down the ability to abuse the power a bit and still allows it to become a free action.

how does that tickle your fancies?

Outwit and Perplex are extremely useful powers that decrease the value of defensive powers. Barrier as a free action would level the playing field further against Outwitters, Perplexers and even PCers...it would also free up quite a few close combat tactics and make them more prevalent then they are now (a common complaint). But it wouldn't be too much of a problem as annoying as some barrier figs would become...the ways to counter would be more prevelent as well (i.e. Outwit) and would take some attention away from damage reducing powers. Plus Firelord Cheese threads would be back!!! Think about it...he flies up to someone and puts up a barrier so they can't do anything about it until he goes again...the Barrier keeps his enemies at bay as he prepares for a five click attack. Yes, the cost of Barrier would need to be adjusted.

Anyway, I like Orzo's thinking here. Barrier is a fun tactical power and can be a valuable part to a keenly strategized team. It would bring another thinking dimension to the game.

mbdeyes: yes, he can, if he's on HSS. so unless boostergold's KC Supes wasn't on HSS, I'm not too sure what he meant.

orzo: Barrier's fine, leave it the way it is. You think there aren't enough complaints and rants about perplex and outwit as it is (although, admittedly, the perplex rants are pretty much only about the hookers)?! Why would you want to make another problematic power by making barrier free. I understand your point, but making another power free would lead to even more of a 'Clix stink. People are upset about all the cheap outwitters running around. As someone pointed out earlier, there's even MORE cheap barrier'ers.

My question is (if this is true and the judge wasn't scamming me): why does barrier go down if the power is outwitted?!? It is my understanding that if Iceman throws up a wall of ice, and black panther gets carried around it and makes Iceman 'forget how to barrier' or 'forget that he can make a wall of ice', it shouldn't mean that the existing barrier would just melt, or disappear. Could someone please explain.

I think what we're saying is that Outwit allows you some options, whereas Barrier can shut a character down completely for a round. If a character could do that without taking an action token every round, then a cheap figure could literally take out anybody, every round.... without any kind of penalty...

also, characters like Blizzard who have barrier, as well as some mutants, etc, actually have to use some resources to create a Barrier.

Think of it this way. Batman (everyone's favourite example of outwit) can sit all day and outthink people without tiring (pushing). He only gets tired from beating on people.... however, if Avalanche tried to constantly barrier, chances are he'd end up with a mutant hangover and a heck of a head ache (serious pushing damage).

Here's my take on it....

Outwit isn't a mental power like Mind Control or Psy Blast. He doesn't make someone forget how to use the power... he somehow figures out how to take out the ability. This isn't rolplaying, so you don't have to come up with a reasonable reason why, you just do it.

For instance, in order to recreate the comic where Black Panther takes out Ultron.... Ultron cannot be hurt... at all.... Thor's hammer bounces off.... however, in the book, BP stealths up behind him during the fight... and then reaches down Ultron's throat and rips out some vital electronics, thereby disabling him.

In a game this would look like BP outwiting the armour and hitting Ultron with no penalty to damage... there would be no need to explain how he did it... in the game, he just does it.

is that a yes? outwitting barrier brings it all down immedeatly?

Also: I know it can't be placed on hindering terrain, but what about on two different elevations (as long as they're still adjacent?)

Yes, I can easily understand how outwit works on the defensive powers a la BP ripping out Ultron's wires/finding a chink in the armor, etcetera, but what i don't get, if you're telling me this ruling is true, (and yes I know it's not roleplaying, and there doesn't need to be a reason, but for the most part, HC stuff can be explained, so I'm just wondering if this can be too) is for BP to get flown around a barrier and then 'outthink' Iceman or take away his mutant ability (relatively reasonable to understand) (read: outwits barrier), then why would his wall of ice disappear?

Can anyone answer these questions about this power for me?

Is it possible to TK a character onto a barrier block? I'm assuming you can't on indoor maps (because you can't fly over walls etc) but what about in outdoor maps? I have read that characters cannot MOVE into it but what about being TK'd onto it? My reasoning for this is, for example, the KC ability is ignored if the figure is TK'd up to the KC figure as opposed to moving in there itself.

Also, it came to my attention yesterday that you cannot shoot over a barrier (while outdoor) does this mean you cannot also see over it? I remember one of the FAQs saying somewhere that barrier created is non-eleved blocking terrain, but i can't find where it says this, if this is the case, wouldn't you be able to see over it? (the recent FAQ says something about not being able to fire into anything that crosses blocking terrain).

Can anyone help me out here?

And to some of the recent questions:


wheresdeadpool >
Yes barrier blocks disappear after the barrier figure a) is outwitted b) loses the power (via KO, push etc)

As for the outwit thing, outwit's "description" is so broad it doesn't really leave much room for error.. meaning someone could easily say BP saw a large tank of toxic waste and threw something at it blowing up the barrier or destroying iceman's concentration... doesn't make much sense i know but how do you explain "I swear I saw him go into that bush but I don't want to waste ammo trying to shoot at the bush" (someone watching BP run into the bush for stealth) lol