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08/17/2008, 01:47

Wade Wilson

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iTrader:

"and"

something that always confuses me on the special powers is the whole and thing, in our games there are times when they say you can't use them all, yet the card's special power says that they can use them, since it doesn't say 'or' but rather 'and' so is this just some sort of typographical error that is repeated on HC's part or is it suppose to be allowed to use all said powers at once?

08/17/2008, 03:46

Quebbster

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This comes up a lot... so I'll just quote Tarnish's excellent explanation for why some things work together and some things don't.

Quote : Originally Posted by Tarnish

My now standard response on "Does Power/TA/Feat X work with Power/TA/Feat Y":

Actions and Attacks. How do they work? Once you understand this, being able to see what powers, feats, and special powers work together is easy. Before we begin lets cover a few basics .

• Action-There are 4 types of actions in the game, Power, Combat (close and ranged), Free and Move. Different powers will require different kinds of actions to activate them.
• Attack-The end result of many actions, but not in itself an action.
• No figure may be assigned more than 1 non free action in a turn.
• All actions except free actions will assign a token to a figure.

Look at the PAC/Feat Card description for each Power/or feat. What type of Action does each Power require to use it? Does either power grant another Action or attack as a Free Action? To use the Powers in the same round would it require you to give 2 non Free Actions to the figure?

This is demonstrated better with examples:

Combining Hypersonic Speed with just about anything is always a common question: Lets look at a Hypersonic Speed (option 1) and Quake combo.

HYPERSONIC SPEED (OPTIONAL): Give this character a power action. It automatically breaks away and can move through squares adjacent to opposing characters. During its move, this character can as a free action make one close combat or one ranged combat attack with its range value halved for the attack. This character must be in a square where it could legally end its move in order to make the attack. This character can continue to use the rest of its movement after making the attack.

QUAKE (OPTIONAL): Give this character a close combat action; until the attack has been resolved, its damage value becomes 2 if it is greater than 2. Make a single attack roll and compare the result to the defense values of all opposing characters adjacent to this character. Each character that takes damage from this attack is knocked back.

Ok to use Hypersonic Speed we need to give a Power Action. But we get a Free Action we can use to make a close combat attack or ranged combat attack with ½ range.
To use Quake need to give a Close Combat Action. And there is where we can stop because we have already given a Power Action to use Hypersonic Speed. The Free Action granted by HSS can only be used to make a close or ranged combat attack and EW needs a full Close Combat Action to use it. So these powers will not work together.
Hypersonic Speed and Exploit weakness will also not work together for exactly the same reason.

EXPLOIT WEAKNESS (OPTIONAL): Give this character a close combat action. Damage from this attack is penetrating damage.

Just like Quake it requires a Close Combat Action that HSS doesn’t provide us with.

Let’s try an example that does work, Like Running Shot and Energy Explosion.

RUNNING SHOT (OPTIONAL): Give this character a power action; halve its speed value for the action. Move this character up to its replacement speed value and give it one ranged combat action as a free action. This character must declare a target to which it can draw a clear line of fire from the square where it intends to end its move in order to use this power.

ENERGY EXPLOSION (OPTIONAL): Give this character a ranged combat action; its damage value becomes 1 until the attack has been resolved. For each target hit by the attack, compare the result of the attack roll to the defense value of each character adjacent to the target to determine if the attack also succeeds against them. Ignore the hindering terrain modifier resulting from characters adjacent to the target when determining if the attack succeeds against additional characters. Each character successfully hit is dealt damage equal to the number of times it was hit by this attack (characters adjacent to multiple targets can be hit more than once by this attack). A critical hit with this attack automatically hits the target(s) and any characters adjacent to the target(s), and deals 1 additional damage to all characters hit. Powers that allow a character to evade attacks are rolled only once after this character’s ranged combat action resolves. If a character evades, it evades all hits by this attack. This power cannot be used to target blocking terrain or objects.

To use RS we give a Power Action. Then after our (halved) movement we can use a Ranged Combat Action as a Free Action. To use RS we need to give a Ranged Combat Action. This is good because we can do this with the Free Action we got from RS. So we can do both without giving a figure more than 1 non Free Action. The combo is Legal.

Let’s look at the one tricky power, Blades/Claws/Fangs.

BLADES/CLAWS/FANGS (OPTIONAL): When this character is given a close combat action, roll one six-sided die after making a successful attack roll. The result replaces this character’s damage value when resolving the attack. If the target was blocking terrain, a wall, or an object, it is destroyed on a result of 3–6.

They key is noticing that first word WHEN. BCF is activated any time a figure is given a Close Combat Action. It does not need its own action to use.

So let’s look at a 3 Power Combination. Charge, Blades/Claws/Fangs, and Exploit Weakness.

CHARGE (OPTIONAL): Give this character a power action; halve its speed value for the action. Move this charcter up to its replacement speed value and then give it one close combat action as a free action. A character with this power ignores knockback and other characters’ Force Blast.

BLADES/CLAWS/FANGS (OPTIONAL): When this character is given a close combat action, roll one six-sided die after making a successful attack roll. The result replaces this character’s damage value when resolving the attack. If the target was blocking terrain, a wall, or an object, it is destroyed on a result of 3–6.

EXPLOIT WEAKNESS (OPTIONAL): Give this character a close combat action. Damage from this attack is penetrating damage.

Ok to use Charge we give a Power Action. Then after our (halved) movement we can use a Close Combat Action as a Free Action. To use Exploit Weakness we need to give a Close Combat Action. This works because we can do this with the Free Action we got from Charge. And BCF activates WHENEVER we have assigned a Close Combat Action. So the combo works (and is quite deadly!)

Once you go through and understand the way things work, you can use the same process with Feats and Team Abilities. You’ll understand why The Justice League Team ability works with Leap/Climb but not with Phasing/Teleport. And why you can’t use Leap/Climb with Pounce even though Leap/Climb is a prerequisite.

Tarnish

08/17/2008, 21:02

WarHULK

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The official answer I read from Seth back when JL was released was that the "and" wording was decided upon instead of "or" with powers that do not work together because they wanted to make sure you were not locked in to one power or the other the entire game. You have both powers available, you can only use one at a time.

This answer was given when the JL Flash was released with "Hypersonic AND Phasing". You can't use both powers together but newer figures like Kid Flash and The Flash from Crisis have wordings which allow you to ignore hindering/blocking terrain for movement.

"Come on Hulk! Where's the old boasting? The battle cries? Why aren't you bellowing about how you're 'the strongest one there is'? Could it be because... you know it's not true?"

"No. Because it's just too obvious."
-Juggernaut to Hulk

08/18/2008, 10:28

Psylockeslover

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Quote : Originally Posted by WarHULK

You have both powers available, you can only use one at a time.

Not nessesarily. Some power combinations do work together. Charge/Flurry being the most common combo at the moment.

As Quebbs posted, it's all about attacks vs. actions.

In the 2 examples:

HSS and P/T are both Power Actions. Since you cannot activate 2 powers with the same action, you cannot activate both HSS and P/T at the same time. That is why those powers don't work together.

Charge is a Power Action that grants a Close Combat Action as a Free Action. Flurry is a Close Combat Action. So the CC Action granted by Charge can be used to activate Flurry.

R.I.P. Jason "Magic_Rat" Sato
4/6/07

08/18/2008, 10:34

WarHULK

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My statement was clarification on when two powers are listed which do not work together yet have "and" in the power. I do know, and have known for some time, that you can Charge/Flurry. I also know you cannot Charge/LC, for example.

Apparently my statement was not clear enough.

Quote : Originally Posted by Psylockeslover

Last edited by WarHULK; 08/18/2008 at 10:35.. Reason: sleepy, words didn't make sense.

08/18/2008, 12:49

Quebbster

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Quote : Originally Posted by WarHULK

I also know you cannot Charge/LC, for example.

You can use Charge and Leap/Climb together - just not all aspects of Leap/Climb.
The most commonly used effect of Leap/Climb, ignoring terrain and opposing characters while moving, only activates when you give the figure a move action. As Charge is a Power Action, you cannot use both effects at once.
However, Leap/Climb also lets you target figures on a different elevation with when you give the figure a close combat action - and Charge gives you a close combat action at the end of your movement, so you can most definitely Charge and perform the attack against a figure on a different elevation. Bet you didn't see that one coming!

08/18/2008, 14:35

WarHULK

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Quote : Originally Posted by Quebbster

OK, OK, I didn't realize that part. So, Human Elektra just gets better and better, hehe.

08/19/2008, 09:20

Quebbster

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Quote : Originally Posted by WarHULK

OK, OK, I didn't realize that part. So, Human Elektra just gets better and better, hehe.

Yeah, on her third click she can be quite brutal - Charge, then do a Flurry/Blades attack against opponents on a different elevation.

Still my favorite has to be Green Scar on his second click though - Smash to perform an Exploit Weakness attack targeting a figure on a different elevation while holding a heavy object can be a nasty surprie indeed...

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